Episode 271: This week I chat with fat dietician Kimmie Singh. We discuss Kimmie’s relationship with food and her body, body image and fat acceptance in recovery, the importance of community, mindful eating, redefining health, reframing beauty ideals and much more.
Kimmie Singh is a self-proclaimed fat Registered Dietitian based in New York City. She is the owner of Body Honor Nutrition, a nutrition private practice that supports individuals to heal their relationships with food and body.
Kimmie supports her clients with a fat-positive and anti-oppressive framework and has a special passion for working with people that have polycystic ovarian syndrome.
Kimmie is also a sought-after speaker and has presented at several national conferences. She presents on the effects of anti-fat stigma in healthcare and nutrition. Kimmie is a believer in kindness, compassion, and the power of advocacy. Learn more about Kimmie at www.bodyhonornutrition.com.
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Chris Sandel: Welcome to Episode 271 of Real Health Radio. You can find the show notes and the links talked about as part of this episode at www.seven-health.com/271.
Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Real Health Radio. I’m your host, Chris Sandel. I’m a nutritionist and a coach, and I help clients to fully recover from disordered eating or an eating disorder so that their days are no longer governed by fear and anxiety, and instead they can live a meaningful life that is in alignment with their values.
This week on the show, it is a guest interview. My guest today is Kimmie Singh. Kimmie is a self-proclaimed fat registered dietitian based in New York City. She’s the owner of Body Honor Nutrition, a nutrition private practice that supports individuals to heal their relationship with food and body. Kimmie supports her clients with a fat-positive and anti-oppressive framework and has a special passion for working with people that have polycystic ovarian syndrome. Kimmie is also a sought-after speaker and has presented at several national conferences. She presents on the effects of anti-fat stigma in health care and nutrition. Kimmie is a believer in kindness, compassion, and the power of advocacy. You can learn more about Kimmie at www.bodyhonornutrition.com.
I’ve been aware of Kimmie for many years and have enjoyed listening to her on various podcasts. I first became aware of her through the work she did with Julie Duffy Dillon, who is a previous guest on the podcast. As part of this conversation today, we chat about Kimmie’s relationship with food and her body as she was growing up; how her dieting turned into an eating disorder; the different levels of care that Kimmie received from the two treatment teams she worked with; the importance of body image and fat acceptance in her recovery; having a partner throughout her recovery and what the support was like; training to be a dietitian and her experience with this; Health At Every Size; the importance of community; mindful eating; her experience of being a fat dietitian; weight stigma; redefining health and reframing beauty ideals; and the weight discrimination bill in New York City.
As you can tell, we cover a lot, and this is a very wide-ranging conversation. While chatting, Kimmie does mention about her PCOS diagnosis, but it isn’t something that we cover in any real detail. If you do want to know more about PCOS, then I highly suggest checking out my conversation with Julie Duffy Dillon. It’s Episode 162 of the podcast, and I’ll link to it in the show notes.
So let’s get on with the show. Here is my conversation with Kimmie Singh.
Hey, Kimmie. Welcome to Real Health Radio. I’m really excited to chat with you today.
Kimmie Singh: Hi. Yes, I am also really excited to chat.
Chris Sandel: This has been a long time coming. There’s been lots of back and forth behind the scenes for us to find a time to speak, so I’m really glad that we’re doing this. I’ve heard you on so many podcasts; I follow you on Instagram and I’ve heard you talk both about your own experiences, but also on topics like weight stigma and fat phobia and beauty standards and on and on. So I’m excited to have a conversation about all this, and I think this will be quite a wide-ranging episode.
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Just to begin with, let’s start with you. If you think back to yourself as a child, what was it like growing up in your household as far as food was concerned?
Kimmie Singh: Oh gosh, let’s see. It was tough because I feel like in my house – I’m thinking in the ’90s here in the States – dieting was really amping up. There was a low-fat craze. If I think of the snack foods around, there were lots of low-fat chips or cookies and lots of shows on TV about the war on the o-word and just harmful ways to talk about bodies. And then also, there were these times where food was celebrated, say around the holidays or birthdays.
As a child, it felt confusing because it created this ‘all or nothing’ around food. I think it just sent a lot of really mixed messages. And now I know that I think that’s probably how it felt for my parents. It felt really confusing, and they were doing what they thought was best, but they were so misinformed. Now I’m able to step back and see, oh yeah, this was a really weird time in the country around dieting, and that was definitely reflected in my household.
Chris Sandel: Was it them getting into dieting themselves at this time, or more thinking about ‘how do we raise a kid’, or both?
Kimmie Singh: I would say it was both. Definitely both. For both of my parents, I feel like maybe what I would define as midsize or like small fat. They felt some pressure to lose weight, and for them being on diets, when they saw me maybe being a child right before my growth spurt, just noticing that my body was changing throughout childhood, specifically around some weight gain, I definitely saw it also pushed on me as well. And then for my brother, whose body looked different – it was thinner and he was younger – it really wasn’t pushed on him. So it was more so my parents and I were the ones that were, as they called it, ‘watching our weight’, and then for my brother, he could have this freedom that I know now is really the best way to raise a child.
So it was a little bit complicated, because I see that they were struggling; they thought they were doing what was best for them and me. Now I’ve done a lot of work to not feel that resentment towards them, but it definitely is tough knowing what I know now about food.
Chris Sandel: Were they very open about “We’re eating this way because we’re trying to lose weight”? Or it was framed as being healthy? Or it wasn’t framed, it was just like “Here are the new foods”?
Kimmie Singh: No, they were very open about ‘weight gain is bad’ and “We want to lose weight, we don’t want you to gain too much weight.” So for me as a child, there was a big fear around weight gain. There were also just a lot of normalised conversations in my household about “So-and-so gained weight” or “So-and-so lost weight.” I feel like the way bodies were discussed in my household was very fatphobic, and as a child, I didn’t really know there was a different way to discuss bodies outside of that.
Chris Sandel: Do you remember when you first started to internalise those messages? Because I think it’s one thing to hear them going on and then another to suddenly realise, “Maybe this is me, I’m one of those.”
Kimmie Singh: Yes. I do remember the shift. I wish I remembered the exact age, but I remember there was a time that I guess in their eyes, my body wasn’t too big, and I remember those conversations would be normal. But then it became a little bit different when it started to be around me, because then it did become internalised, and there is so much shame around eating and hiding food and all sorts of things that now I know are normal responses to restriction or dieting for children.
But yeah, it made it really tough. I remember at this time I would also see lots of commercials on TV about weight loss and diets and SlimFast, all sorts of things that were really popular here then, and it would always say ‘these are for adults’ or ‘these are for people 18 or older’. As a child, I always felt so mad, like “Why don’t they have these products for me too?” Now it’s really sad to think of it that way, but I just felt really stuck and also really alone in that.
Chris Sandel: I know a lot of what you’re talking about is very universal, and I also wonder how much of this is an American experience in that if I go over to America – I currently live in Scotland in the UK, I grew up in Sydney in Australia. Whenever I go to America, I’m just blown away by all the marketing of drugs on TV. That just does not happen in other countries. There isn’t ‘ask your doctor about blah-blah-blah’ on ads over here. So I do wonder how much that also has an impact and is uniquely American.
Kimmie Singh: Yeah, I wonder too. That would make sense to me. It was definitely a really big part of that experience. I think I also was wondering at that age, “Is this only something that adults experience and I’m the only young person experiencing it?” So it was very confusing.
Chris Sandel: What about sport or movement? Did this come into it as well? Were your parents encouraging you or doing it themselves in terms of “We have to go to the gym” or “We have to exercise” or that piece of it?
Kimmie Singh: That part was there. When I was younger, I really enjoyed playing outside and rollerblading, riding my bike. So it was a bit more intuitive. When I got a little bit older, then there was more structured exercise and going on the treadmill, and there was pressure around that. But when I was younger I loved being outside, especially in summer, and playing with the neighbourhood children. I was always really social. So it fell really fun.
I think it started to feel less fun – I remember we moved and I didn’t know as many of my neighbours, and there was less of this neighbourhood culture of playing outside. So then movement started to be less fun, and then it felt like it was more of something you do to lose weight. I think that came up more in my teenage years.
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Chris Sandel: I know you are the daughter of an Indian immigrant, and I wonder how that affected you growing up.
Kimmie Singh: Absolutely, oh my gosh. I think that was a really big piece of that fear of weight gain. In my father’s eyes, there was this big fear of “What if you’re not accepted?” or “What if you look so different from what’s the norm? Then how are you going to survive? How are you going to build a career and live a full life?” I do feel like there’s also so much irony there because – for those of you that are listening that don’t know, I’m a fat dietitian. And there are such few fat dietitians. I go against the grain in so many ways. Thankfully, I’ve been able to build a full and happy career, but it’s definitely what my biggest fear was, I think as a result of some of that pressure my father felt around assimilation.
Chris Sandel: How old was your dad when he moved over?
Kimmie Singh: Let me think. I think he moved here when he was 17 or 18, and I’m guessing he was around 23 when I was born. So he was a younger father.
Chris Sandel: For you, how much were you embracing your South Asian background growing up? Were you trying to distance yourself and very much be the American kid and trying to hide that piece?
Kimmie Singh: It would depend. There’s that idea of code switching. There were certain settings where it felt really accepted and great to talk about, and other settings where I felt like “This is less accepted here”, especially when my family moved to North Carolina at a certain point in my childhood. I just felt like there was this Bible Belt culture and if you’re not Christian, then there’s a lot of judgment. So I feel like that was happening.
But then as I became older and maybe in more progressive spaces, there was so much more curiosity around South Asia, and in some ways putting the South Asian culture on a pedestal – which felt like it was an extreme that also felt a little bit bizarre to me. So it always felt politicised in some way. It didn’t feel neutral. And I think I became aware of that from a really young age too.
Chris Sandel: Did you have any other Indian relatives living nearby? Was it just your dad that had moved over, or there were other people?
Kimmie Singh: There were other people, like relatives and extended family. But then also friends. In those spaces, there’s a different type of connection that you feel and a different type of sense of community. So I feel really fortunate that I had that. I think it would’ve been really tough if I didn’t, because I think I would’ve felt much more like an outsider in a lot of ways.
Chris Sandel: What about the impact that this had on the kinds of foods you were eating? How much of what you were eating and was cooked in the house was South Asian versus being more run-of-the-mill American?
Kimmie Singh: I feel like there was a good mix. Let’s see. I want to say 50/50. There was always something Indian that was there and that was made, but then there were also more American options, too. For me, it just depended on what it was. There were some things I liked, some things I didn’t like, and I feel like that still is the case now.
But then I’m just thinking of how, in a lot of ways, some of the American low-fat ideas were put onto South Asian foods, where certain things were made with very little oil or butter. So it definitely became something that was changing the way we were experiencing those cultural foods too.
Chris Sandel: So it wasn’t just the American foods got infiltrated, but we can enjoy the other ones in their authentic form; it all got diluted down.
Kimmie Singh: Exactly. And then there also became that ‘all or nothing’ around if it’s a special occasion then you have it in that original form, but if not then you try to change it up.
Chris Sandel: When did it shift from your parents essentially putting you on a diet to you more taking the reins and doing this of your own accord?
Kimmie Singh: I was probably in my early teens when I started to feel more of that social pressure. I’m even thinking around desirability and what it felt like to be someone that maybe looks better and how I was internalising beauty standards. So I think it was probably the pre-teen years.
Through a lot of my teens, my eating was so disordered, and I was feeling much less pressure from my parents, I think because I was largely putting it on myself. So it definitely shifted then. I think at that point, so much of this was deeply internalised that it felt like the norm.
Chris Sandel: When chatting with friends or at school, were people aware that you were dieting? Or this was like your secret that you were not wanting people to know about?
Kimmie Singh: I think it was more so if I felt like somebody else would bring it up first, maybe I would mention it. But I don’t think there was much of an intentional hiding it. But it was also really clear from what I was eating. I was eating these really sad sandwiches for lunch and not having much variety. So I feel like if anybody knew what a diet looked like, they would be able to see I didn’t have much variety and that I wasn’t so excited around lunchtime. I don’t think I was secretive, but I don’t think I talked about it very expressively.
Chris Sandel: In terms of how the dieting shifted your body, were you having periods of where your weight had gone down and then your weight had gone up, or it wasn’t actually working like that?
Kimmie Singh: I definitely was gaining and losing, gaining and losing through my teenage years, which is really tough. And now I know it’s such a common experience. But to have that going on at such a young age, it definitely makes me sad to think about. It also felt confusing because – I’m just thinking of how at that age you’re still growing and you’re still finding different clothes that you like and that fit your body, and with me having PCOS (polycystic ovarian syndrome), I remember it was always really hard buying jeans or finding pants. So between that and the weight cycling, just because of how PCOS affected my body shape, it felt like a really difficult time around body image.
And at the same time, just to acknowledge, I feel like I was a bit more straight size then. I was still maybe in the small fat category, but I had immense size privilege. And even that, I really had so many body image struggles, and then struggles around my body shape and feeling really uncomfortable with how my body was shaped. There was just so much going on there.
Chris Sandel: I also imagine as well, with knowing how much this is prized within your family from a very young age, with trying to do everything to control food, your parents are talking about the importance of weight loss – if that’s not happening, then this has a really big impact on your sense of identity. “Am I letting people down?” I can imagine so many thoughts that then come up connected to this.
Kimmie Singh: Oh yeah, absolutely. And this is something I see a lot in my South Asian clients, too, or even the children of immigrants that I work with. Even if weight loss is less prioritised within their own values, it becomes something that feels very tied to “How do I make my parents proud?” or “My parents sacrificed so much for me; how do I make sure I’m doing this one thing for them?” It can feel really tied to this idea of obedience and being a good kid.
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Chris Sandel: You mentioned polycystic ovarian syndrome. Talk about your experience with this in terms of being diagnosed with it.
Kimmie Singh: Like I said, I know that throughout my teens I did realise I didn’t fit into certain clothes maybe in similar ways as my peers just with how my body was shaped, and I remember having irregular periods. But it was a little bit later – I think I was almost 20 when I was diagnosed, my doctor mentioned it really passively and was like, “Oh yeah, we think you have this thing called PCOS. It just means that you might have trouble conceiving one day.” She didn’t really mention anything else about it. I remember being shaken up, like, “What?” Because at that time I had no interest in having children in that moment, but I also was like, “Wait, hold on, I feel like I need to know more about this.”
She gave me a pamphlet, which didn’t really provide a whole lot of context. So I Googled it, and I saw that PCOS is connected to so many other things. I was like, “I don’t know, this doesn’t seem right. I’m not experiencing all of this.” I didn’t really understand how my own experiences fit into that. And I also didn’t understand that as you get a little bit older, your PCOS can change. I don’t think I personally accepted or acknowledged the diagnosis until a few years later, when my weight started fluctuating more and I had more of those symptoms that I remembered I saw when I Googled it. So it was kind of a wild ride in that learning about PCOS process.
Chris Sandel: So for a number of years you dismissed it and were like, “I don’t think that’s actually what I’ve got”?
Kimmie Singh: [laughs] Yeah, I think it was maybe three or four years. I just didn’t think too much about it. I was like, “I don’t know, this is kind of weird. I don’t know what this means.” I was really dismissive of it. But then I remember when I went back to that provider because I was having some irregular bleeding – and I also gained enough weight where I was in a very different size body, where I no longer had any of that body size privilege. I just remember she was livid about the weight gain. I remember her yelling so much about it that all of the other staff in the medical office could hear, and when I left I was so embarrassed because they were all looking at me. It was very uncomfortable.
So I think that’s when I realised I actually have this thing. I still wasn’t given a whole lot of information. She recommended a very restricted diet or weight loss surgery. It wasn’t until a little bit later that I started my own eating disorder recovery and I learned that my eating was actually much more disordered than I realised. I feel like this was a really pivotal time in my life in that way.
Chris Sandel: That sucks to hear about that experience that you went through, that a doctor is screaming at you and shouting at you. I know why people then don’t want to go to doctors’ offices.
Kimmie Singh: Definitely. This was my first taste of medical fatphobia in this super explicit way. And I think I didn’t really know that I didn’t deserve that because I remember going back to that provider, maybe for another year, just thinking that this is an acceptable response and not realising that it’s not okay to be spoken to that way, especially around weight. I mean, about anything, but just for a doctor to respond that way to weight gain.
Chris Sandel: It says a lot about that person, from my perspective.
Kimmie Singh: Exactly. I do think it says so much when a provider is so reactive to a patient gaining weight. Especially now that I’m a provider, I’m like, that’s a massive red flag. [laughs] That’s not at all a normal response.
Chris Sandel: Yeah. What trauma, what biases, what stuff is going on behind closed doors for that person for that to be their reaction?
Kimmie Singh: Yeah, and that’s something I speak about a lot now because every single person has their own relationship with their body, and as patients, sometimes people don’t realise that this provider might be incredibly knowledgeable and they might have that degree, but they might have done zero work around their relationship with their body. And that can really show up, and will really show up, in their patient interactions.
Chris Sandel: Definitely. You said that your eating then continued down a not-so-great path, and I know it eventually progressed to an eating disorder. On your site, you say, “And the worst part was I didn’t even realise I had one because I didn’t think people who looked like me could. I only associated eating disorders with thin white teenagers.”
Kimmie Singh: Exactly.
Chris Sandel: Talk about this experience.
Kimmie Singh: I definitely didn’t know – I didn’t have any concept of an eating disorder existing outside of that stereotypical idea. I knew there was something wrong with my eating, but I didn’t think – I thought it’s okay to try to lose weight at all costs, and as I gained more weight and as I felt really at odds with my body, especially around the PCOS, controlling my food became more and more obsessive. And then I’d have these moments where I couldn’t control it. It became something that became more and more intense.
It wasn’t until I met with a provider at that time where I received an eating disorder diagnosis, and it felt really validating but also really scary. But I feel like that’s the start of my recovery process.
Chris Sandel: What was their response? Did you voice the ‘but people like me can’t have an eating disorder’?
Kimmie Singh: I don’t think I voiced it. I think I was just surprised. This was my first recovery team, and although they were great and they were really helpful, I don’t think if they were necessarily fat positive in their practice. It wasn’t until at a later time when I sought out more inclusive treatment providers that I learned just how politicised this is. I don’t think I really even had the words to describe what I was feeling at that time because I was just very surprised.
And then when I learned more about weight stigma, I was like, oh wait, yeah, this explains that confusion that I felt before and why I didn’t really put two and two together that my eating could be disordered. I think even just not seeing that modelled or not seeing those conversations happening really didn’t give me a space to even explore some of my own thoughts around it.
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Chris Sandel: What then did your recovery look like? You can talk about the first phase and the second phase.
Kimmie Singh: The biggest thing that stands out to me is really that I had two treatment teams. The first team I saw weren’t fat positive, and there was still this emphasis on weight loss. That made it really confusing for me because it felt very contradictory. But once again, I didn’t really have the language to understand it or how to reflect on it. I just thought, “Okay, this is what they’re telling me to do. I’m going to focus on recovery but also expect that I’m going to lose weight too.” It felt very confusing.
It was more so because of the circumstances that I had to switch providers. It wasn’t that I was looking for a new treatment team. So because of the circumstances, I had to switch providers, and it happened to be that my next team was fat positive, and that’s when I realised there is so much that I was missing. I didn’t really know what I was missing. And I wasn’t really on social media or involved in fat liberation spaces, so once again, I just didn’t know there was a different way.
That’s something that today, to this point, haunts me, because I wonder how many people out there don’t know that there are really liberatory spaces and providers. Because I feel like it was such a missing piece in my treatment early on.
Chris Sandel: From my experience, I don’t know how you do it the other way.
Kimmie Singh: Same. [laughs]
Chris Sandel: I don’t know how you help someone to recover – and especially someone like yourself who is living in a larger body – how do you help someone to recover from that without then talking about Health At Every Size or without getting to that place? Because otherwise, anything you do feels temporary. It’s like, “Okay, we do this to recover and then you need to go back to basically what you were doing before, but just do the ‘lite’ version of that and don’t take it so far.”
Kimmie Singh: That’s exactly what I was told, and I was told this in a really compassionate way. It felt really confusing because it was the first time that anyone had ever in my life told me that I can be in my body and accept my body and see beauty in it – and I was still praised for weight loss in this process and told that I should lose weight. So it felt confusing, but I didn’t know there was anything different.
So then when I learned more about Health At Every Size and fat positivity, it felt like this huge missing piece of the puzzle. But it also made me realise that I knew something wasn’t right before but I didn’t trust myself. Same with that other doctor that yelled at me; I knew something wasn’t right, but I didn’t trust myself.
Now, I honestly think that really influences and shapes my practice because I tell all of my clients, “I don’t want you to take my word for any of this. I want you to listen to yourself. I want you to build a philosophy that feels like it fits your life. I want you to question this process.” Just because I feel like we all have so much internal wisdom, and if I were to have listened to maybe some of that internal dialogue earlier on, I feel like I would’ve reached such different goals in recovery that I didn’t know were an option.
Chris Sandel: I have similar conversations with clients. Especially early on. It’s like, the goal of this isn’t for me to create another mini version of myself where you just take on every one of my beliefs. And especially because there is a power dynamic. Someone is coming to see me because they believe that I have some knowledge or I have some skill set here. I want them to then start to have questions, to think about things, to feel comfortable to be able to say, “I don’t quite get this” or “This doesn’t feel right.”
I think so much of what dieting has taught someone is to ignore all of that and just follow along, and ‘here’s the things you should do and here’s the things you shouldn’t do’. So I really want to encourage this because I think it’s more than just about food. It’s like, how wo you have someone come back into their ability to have intuition and listen to intuition, to speak up when things are difficult, to have boundaries? There’s just so many reasons why that’s important.
Kimmie Singh: Yeah, definitely. I also think in the grand scheme of science and medicine, so much of what we’re working with now – although it’s so innate, building a life outside of diet culture, it’s so new. Diet culture as we know it is still something that is so new. When I even think back to the ’90s, diets were really amping up here in the States. There’s so much we don’t know, and I don’t think it would be fair to clients to say “Oh yeah, you need to do things just like me or just like I say” when each person is still so different and has such different experiences.
Chris Sandel: When you did then find out about Health At Every Size and fat acceptance and all of this, how much did you embrace that immediately? How much were you pushing back? What was your reaction?
Kimmie Singh: Oh my gosh, so much pushback. [laughs] I was like, wait, what? So many things. Oh gosh. I think it felt confusing because I didn’t know that I didn’t learn about that in my first recovery team. I was like, “Oh yeah, body acceptance, I’m about that too. Just you lose weight at the same time.” [laughs] I really did not understand what I didn’t know. So it took some time for me to even realise that I learned about anything different.
And then it felt really surprising to sit with this idea that I can be present with my body, and that my future self isn’t going to necessarily be a thin version of myself. I think it took so much time to really unlearn that. And I feel like a huge piece of it was starting to build a life in my present body, because I feel like when it was just theoretical, it felt like it was really impossible. It just didn’t feel like an option because it all felt like this big ‘maybe’, like “What if this isn’t even really an option for me in my body?”
That’s something that I wish I brought into my treatment earlier on: just taking more action steps towards living the life I want to live in my current body.
Chris Sandel: This is something not just from a body image perspective, but from lots of different angles, that when I’m chatting with clients it’s like, let’s get out of the theory realm and let’s get into the realm of you’ve taken some action, and then let’s see what happens. Because otherwise it’s just all imagined of like ‘this is going to happen and this is going to happen and this is going to happen’, and we don’t actually know if any of that is true.
Kimmie Singh: Yes. Oh my gosh, exactly. That’s something I wish I had a little bit earlier on. I don’t know if I was even ready to take action when I first started and when I was so hesitant to, but I just know that that’s when I started to see really big shifts.
Chris Sandel: As someone who works with clients, yes, action taking is important, and people have to get there at their own pace. It builds up, and I think there can often by this feeling of like “This isn’t working” or “I’m not doing anything”, and then something shifts. I do always, when I’m working with clients, want to say it’s not linear. There are times where it feels like it’s easier, there are times where it feels like it’s difficult, there are times where it feels like it’s stopped, and yet things are still progressing.
Kimmie Singh: Yeah. I think when you can see that it’s not linear and you can see that there are more subtle shifts or those ebbs and flows, that’s when you know it’s actually going well and it’s going right. And it shouldn’t feel like a diet, that it’s this all or nothing.
Chris Sandel: Yeah. And often when things go ‘wrong’ is actually when you learn a ton, like, “Oh, that thing actually was really important that I’ve now stopped doing.”
Kimmie Singh: Right. If we try to fast forward over that, I don’t think it’s really long-lasting recovery. So much of how we learn those lessons and build confidence in ourselves is really only found through making those mistakes or things not going perfectly.
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Chris Sandel: With the second treatment team where it was more successful, how much was the body image piece part of that recovery? And what did that look like outside of, as you say, just taking action? Was there anything else you were doing in that area?
Kimmie Singh: It’s so complex because now what I know as a provider, and what I feel like I needed at that time too, is differentiating between the body image piece and also the fatphobia piece, and recognising – like, I had body image struggles before I was fat, and then also experiencing fatphobia was like this worst case scenario painted by my parents when I was a child. So parsing those two out felt really significant.
Really building a healthy relationship with food created space for imperfect days, created space for fluidity and flexibility. That was a really big part of it. And just letting food be food was something that felt really magical. I remember when I first learned about hunger and fullness and preferences, I was really surprised that I didn’t learn about it at any other point, even though I heard about every single diet.
That’s really what sparked my passion for wanting to be a dietitian, and I’m so glad that I followed through with that. But yeah, I feel like the food and body – there was just so much there that I was learning, and it was mind-blowing.
Chris Sandel: And I would imagine a ton of grief as well, and hopefully you were having the providers who were able to sit with you and hold space for that grief.
Kimmie Singh: Yeah. There was a lot of pain in learning about even those things I told you that I experienced with my family – learning that that wasn’t okay, and also creating space for me to forgive my parents and recognise that they were doing their best. It was a lot to process.
Chris Sandel: You said that this was the thing that then sparked your interest in becoming a dietitian. When you first thought about this and then mentioned it to your eating disorder team, what was their reaction to this as an idea?
Kimmie Singh: I feel like I first found this passion when I was with my first treatment team, and I think they were supportive. Yeah, they were supportive, but it was so different. It was such a different response than say my next treatment team that was celebratory and like, “We need fat providers.” There was just so much more excitement from that team, and I think there was this realisation – I think that was another part of it, like how politicised the work is and how there are such few fat dietitians. So that’s something I didn’t necessarily hear from my team when I told them at first.
Chris Sandel: Were there any worries for you about what it could be like doing dietetics training, and could that be triggering, could that be not so good for where you are in your recovery? Were there those concerns?
Kimmie Singh: As many people with eating disorders, I was not super concerned with how triggering it would be. [laughs] I was more so just excited for this newfound passion. I mean, I knew it was going to be chaotic and who knows what to expect, but I think I was more so sitting with the confusion around “Wait, but can I really be a fat provider?” When I envisioned this future for myself, I think I was still envisioning this future thin dietitian, and that felt like it was something that was many years away.
I think it was really through that process that I was like, “No, I can be this person in my current body”, and that felt really special.
00:42:26
Chris Sandel: Something I was wanting to ask was when you were going through recovery or this stage, were you single? Did you have a partner during this time? What was your experience on this front?
Kimmie Singh: I did have a partner, who’s now my husband. He was really supportive. Honestly, we learned together, and it felt really nice. I consider that to be something that really supported me and helped me feel empowered and more confident in this work, especially because my family, my parents, although they wanted to be supportive, I don’t think they really were able to embody it in the same way that he was. My partner is someone who’s never been on a diet, and I think for him it felt really natural. It just made sense as he was learning more about it. So I think that was really nice. It was just a really positive source of support that I wasn’t getting in a lot of other areas in my life.
Chris Sandel: Awesome. For you to have someone as a role model of how to be around food, and then to be able to talk about Health At Every Size or the things that you’re then learning in recovery around bodies and how this has had an impact on you, I think that’s so nice to hear you had that as your experience.
Kimmie Singh: I agree. I don’t think it’s always the most common, and I feel really fortunate that I had that. It was really nice. And because dieting was such a norm my entire life, my partner – I remember when I met him, I was really surprised by the fact that he didn’t really talk about food in that diet-y way. He didn’t put food in those types of categories that I did. So I feel like there were some seeds planted even before I started recovery because of him. It was definitely a really good fit for so many reasons.
Chris Sandel: Yes, what you’re describing isn’t the most common, but I also think it’s not that uncommon. I’ve had quite a number of clients where this has been their situation as well. And the reason I’m saying this is I think there can be this big fear with recovery of like “I’m never going to be able to get into a relationship, no-one is going to understand this, everyone diets”, all of that. I do want to say that no, there are lots of people out there that don’t do that. There are lots of people out there where you can get into a relationship with them and your body changes and they’re still around, they’re still just as jazzed to be with you. I think there’s so many fears and misconceptions.
Kimmie Singh: I completely agree. My husband, although he didn’t diet, didn’t know the terminology; he didn’t know what Health At Every Size meant or what diet culture was – and he also didn’t know what dieting really was. So if you’re only looking within the smaller Health At Every Size communities, yeah, that might not be the biggest dating pool, and also, there are so many people out there that don’t live their life within dieting. I really do feel like there are so many people out there, thankfully, that are living a different life. And it can be hard to see that when your life feels really small because dieting has made it small.
00:46:18
Chris Sandel: Definitely. I agree. What was your experience like being a dietitian in training? I know that’s a big question.
Kimmie Singh: Oh my gosh, it was so stressful. First, grad school definitely is tough. But the hardest part was the emotional labour of it all, knowing that eating disorders just weren’t really talked about or acknowledged in the way that they should’ve been, knowing that I was facing fatphobia from professors and seeing how my peers discussed fat bodies. Really in every single classroom, there was so much – you didn’t know what was going to happen. There were desks that were too small. At every corner.
I remember by my last year, I remember feeling like, “Thank God this is my last year because I don’t think I would be able to do it if it were longer.” Really, the emotional toll that it took is something I don’t think I can even begin to put into words.
Chris Sandel: Were there other fat dietitians in training like you?
Kimmie Singh: I think maybe like one or two other students. One of them left the programme halfway. Another one didn’t necessarily work from a fat-positive perspective. So it’s not that I really had that support.
But I think towards the end I started to find professors that were a bit more open to having discussions around this and around fat positivity, around eating disorders, and that’s when I started to feel a bit safer to discuss some of these topics. It was really scary before. It felt like, what if I start talking about this and there’s someone that’s very fatphobic and that might not want me to be practicing as a dietitian? Because that is conversations that have happened amongst the field of dietitians. So I was very fearful in that way for quite some time.
Chris Sandel: Wow. It’s just horrible to think that that was your experience.
Kimmie Singh: Yeah. Towards the end it was great because I did feel so much support from the department and the faculty, but it took some time to get there. Thankfully, some more fatphobic professors retired. [laughs] But it was still very tough. And even with that support, it’s still physically painful to sit in class when a desk is literally too small for your body. It’s really distracting to have to go through that every day.
Chris Sandel: You said you got on better with the professors towards the end; were you able to mention that? Has anything been taken on board and changed with that?
Kimmie Singh: Yeah, actually last year I spoke at a panel at my alma mater, and it was really great because there was someone there who I guess has more power in that school and since then has been trying to do something just to give people more options there so if that’s the case, they can make accommodations so you don’t have to go through that. So there really have been quite a few changes since I left. I feel really thankful that was the case.
Chris Sandel: Did you speak up very much during your training, or it was just like “This is too much for me to be able to do”?
Kimmie Singh: I think there were times when it felt safer and times when it didn’t. I found that I really had to pick and choose my battles because – I’m just thinking of a couple professors that seemed to be so fatphobic that I was like, this is not a battle I’m necessarily going to win. But then there were other spaces when I felt comfortable and confident speaking up.
And what I found was that so many students would approach me after and be like, “I’m so glad you spoke up. I can relate to that experience” or “I used to have an eating disorder.” I was really surprised by the number of students that were really on board, but I wouldn’t have known it if I didn’t speak up.
00:50:43
Chris Sandel: I know you’re a consultant for the Health At Every Size Dietietic Internship at the University of North Carolina Greensboro. What does this role involve?
Kimmie Singh: There’s a Health At Every Size rotation for the internship. For dietitians, you have to go through these rotations before you can become a dietitian. It means that students there really can have the opportunity to learn more about dietetics through a Health At Every Size model and learn how to bring that into their career early on. It also means that some of these more complicated – I wouldn’t even say complicated; I would say more complex and deeper conversations are happening at a really early level in their training, and I get to be involved in that and help shape that. I am so fortunate that that’s the case. It’s been a really rewarding process for me.
Chris Sandel: Is this internship a weight-centric model, and then there’s the Health At Every Size added on? Or how does it work?
Kimmie Singh: I would say it is weight-inclusive, and I would also say there are probably some of the local rotations that you can get matched up – some of them might not be weight-inclusive. But the director is weight-inclusive and is there to support students, and is also encouraging folks to bring that information to their sites and to their rotations. So it’s definitely far ahead of its time.
Chris Sandel: Nice. That does sound really positive.
Kimmie Singh: It really is. They’re reading great books and learning things that other dietitians are not learning that I wish they were. I’m hoping that they can be a model for other programmes.
Chris Sandel: You mentioned books there, and one of the things I wanted to ask was, when you were going through your recovery, were there specific books or resources that helped you the most?
Kimmie Singh: Honestly, I wasn’t very connected to them. My first treatment team, books and resources really wasn’t a part of that process. My second treatment team, I honestly think a really big one – oh, what was it called? I’m forgetting the name now, but it was a fiction novel, and I remember feeling – I remember the moment when I read about a fat character and how it was so empowering to feel like, “Oh my gosh, this is the first time I’m reading about a fat character.” It once again created space for me to feel like I can exist in the world.
It was something that I didn’t think would be that powerful, but it really was. And now I know that there are so many fat characters in novels, and I always encourage folks to check them out if they enjoy reading. That was pretty nice and unexpectedly really empowering.
Chris Sandel: Nice. If you remember the name of it after this, send it over and I’ll add it to the show notes.
Kimmie Singh: Yeah, I’ll look into it. I’ll find that name.
Chris Sandel: You said that probably at some point when you were starting being a dietitian, or that was the plan to become one, there was this idea that “By the time I become the dietitian, maybe I’ll be in a thinner body.” I know on your site you say, “I’m not your typical dietitian. For one, I don’t look like the poster image of health you’re used to, and that’s fine because I don’t believe I need to – at least not anymore.” How long did it take you to get to that ‘I don’t believe this piece anymore’?
Kimmie Singh: Let’s see. It’s hard to give an exact number because, like we mentioned, it was such an ebb and flow. There would be times earlier on that I was like, “No, no, I can be in my body” and other times where I was like, “But what if I don’t get a job?” I feel like it took a lot of time. I think a lot of my twenties were spent finding my place with my body and finding my place in the world where I felt like I could excel and I could feel safe. I wish I had an exact moment, but I don’t think I could – I don’t think it would be fair or honest if I tried to give you one.
Chris Sandel: Sure. That makes sense. If you can remember this, how long have you referred to yourself as a fat dietitian as opposed to just ‘I’m a dietitian’?
Kimmie Singh: Throughout my entire career as a dietitian. Even in my training, I was a fat dietitian to be. I think I brought the political piece in really early on, even at moments when I still had internalised fatphobia. And I say that because I now work with so many people that are really great and strong in their activism but might still have moments where they’re like, “I wish that I had the thin privilege to have some relief in the oppression that I experience.” I try to encourage folks to remember that it’s okay to have those moments; it’s just important to not internalise that fatphobia. And knowing that you don’t need to lose weight to find relief.
00:56:37
Chris Sandel: I think I’ve heard on another podcast you talking about being a fat dietitian and how this helps your clients, and it was really nice hearing about this. Can you talk about why you think this can be so helpful for people?
Kimmie Singh: I know for some folks that I work with, it can feel a little bit confusing – I don’t know if ‘confusing’ is the right word, but it can feel a little disjointed, just wondering within providers, like, “I wonder if this thin provider would still be fat positive if they were actually fat”, because their experiences can be really different. So I feel like for some folks that I work with, it can feel really nice to know that I have so many shared experiences. Or sometimes they’ll say, “You’re the first fat person I’ve ever really worked with or talked to about this stuff.”
It can really give this example of, okay, I’m here; although we’re actively talking about your recovery, while we’re doing that I’m passively showing you I’m a fat person who’s living my life and having my career, and I don’t feel like I need to show you that you need to lose weight to show up in this world. So I think there’s a lot that goes unsaid in just being a fat provider.
Chris Sandel: I think that thing you talked about at the start there of being a thin provider and wondering if you would still be fat positive if your body changed – I can’t answer that question for a client. My feeling is I think if my body changed, I would still hold my same beliefs, but I’m kidding myself if I say I know that to be true because I don’t know what’s going to happen if that changed. I don’t know how much my life would feel like it’s crumbling apart. I think it’s not going to affect me, but you don’t know what you don’t know.
Kimmie Singh: Exactly. I appreciate even hearing that transparency from you, because you really don’t know what you don’t know. And I don’t know, if I never gained weight, if I were somewhat straight sized my entire life, I don’t know if I would’ve ever learned about fatphobia and about a more liberatory way of living or if I would’ve even been receptive to it. So there’s so much that I don’t know too, in a different way.
00:59:10
Chris Sandel: I know on your side as well, you talk about the solidarity in community and about finding community, and I think you also did a recent talk about this at the ASDAH Conference. Talk about the necessity of community and why this is so important.
Kimmie Singh: So many things. One thing that really breaks my heart is that for fat people, we’re not really given space to be in community unless it’s around weight loss, unless it’s like Weightwatchers or something like that. So fat people aren’t really even taught that you can be in connection with each other and just hold space for each other’s humanity. That’s so important. I feel like it’s a non-negotiable when it comes to fat liberation. You need to find your people and your community because it’s really hard to try to do this work on your own. It’s definitely been a game-changer for me.
Chris Sandel: How do you provide this for your clients? Are you matching up other clients? Do you have some kind of group as part of it? How does it work?
Kimmie Singh: I’m in the process of trying to get stuff going for the New York City area. I was part of a Facebook group and we did some meetups, but I’m trying to get more stuff going for this particular area. For people that live in other areas, I always recommend them to some of the groups that do meetups. I’m thinking Fat Girls Hiking, they do a lot of stuff. There are other similar groups in different cities. A lot of times it starts online, and if you live in an area where there’s not a whole lot of fat community, it might feel like it’s staying online, but it can really expand beyond that.
So a lot of it really involves sometimes taking that leadership role and trying to find folks around you, or trying to get connected to folks that maybe have similar life experiences and going from there.
Chris Sandel: When did you personally find this community piece? At what point? Was this while you were in recovery, or it came after for you and you wish you had more of that community in recovery?
Kimmie Singh: I found some community in recovery, and I think since then I’ve been getting more and more connected. So it’s been there. I feel like it was a really important part of my recovery.
01:01:45
Chris Sandel: Nice. I know I’d asked before about being a fat dietitian and how this helps clients, but how has it been for your experience? What is it like labelling yourself that way? What has the reaction been from people online?
Kimmie Singh: It’s been honestly a pretty cool experience. Whenever I tell people I’m a dietitian and they see my body and they hear the words, I always see their face going through a moment of confusion and awkwardness. [laughs] It’s a little bit funny to me, and it’s also a really good chance for me to show somebody that, yeah, you can exist in this world outside of stereotypes.
Online, I feel really lucky in that I haven’t had to deal with many trolls. I don’t know if that’s always going to be the case, but it’s been really nice because I’ve also gotten to meet other fat providers in this space, both online and in person, and that has been really special. There’s just a camaraderie of knowing what it’s like to do this work and hold space for people while also facing the oppression yourself. That’s been really, really great.
Honestly, I feel like I’m so lucky to do what I do. I really enjoy working with each and every one of my clients. It’s really rewarding beyond words.
Chris Sandel: Was your goal with doing this to work in this area? When you first said “I want to get into being a dietitian”, was it always to work in the area that you’re working in now?
Kimmie Singh: Yeah, that is the case. When I learned about recovery and intuitive eating and then later about Health At Every Size, I knew that I wanted to work from that perspective. I never had a phase where I was working in another area of dietetics and I had to unlearn some of that. That definitely has shaped my training process and also the way I practice.
Chris Sandel: If I’m thinking about this from a client perspective and the clients that you work with, I know for some clients they can get the concept of intuitive eating or they can understand about diet culture or fat positivity and all of these things, and understand it intellectually, but then when it comes to putting it into practice or when thinking about it for themselves, this is a different story.
Again, this is probably a broad question, but how do you help your clients shift from that simple knowing something to actually practicing it or believing it to be true for themselves?
Kimmie Singh: I try to simplify it and remind folks that it doesn’t need to be this huge, revolutionary change in their lives. It can just be eating. It can literally just be looking at what’s in their fridge or ordering something and just eating a meal and being present with some of the tougher thoughts that can show up, and maybe exploring what it feels like to have permission around pleasure when it comes to eating or elsewhere.
And also slowly, over time, becoming more and more connected to things that they know help them feel their best, whether it’s enjoying a tasty piece of cake or slowing down when they’re eating so they’re really tasting each bite or whatever else. But I find that a lot of what helps people step into the action step is to really simplify it, because sometimes we can make it seem bigger than it really is when we stay in that more theoretical space, if that makes sense.
Chris Sandel: It does. When you say ‘simplify it’, is it “Let’s pick something that you want to do and have that be an action step”?
Kimmie Singh: Yeah, that can be it. Sometimes it can be that we are taking the action step in session, whether it’s around food or whether it’s around finding some clothes that fit their body as their body is, in a way that helps them feel like they can live a full life in the moment. Sometimes it can be maybe discussing what barriers are showing up and then taking more of a step to reduce those barriers.
But yeah, I definitely try to create space for that action to happen when it’s accessible – and when somebody’s at a place where taking an action step is really hard, sitting with that discomfort with them and holding space for “What does it feel like to recognise that right now you’re doing everything that you can, and that’s okay? It’s okay if it’s not what you want it to be.”
Chris Sandel: I’d even say that in that moment, it is taking action. It’s like, how do I learn how to sit with the discomfort, or how do I learn to show myself self-compassion, or how do I learn to say “It’s really hard right now” and being vulnerable. Those are all actions, too.
Kimmie Singh: Oh yeah, that’s such a good way to put it. It’s very much a part of this work. I feel like it’s no less than one of those other steps when it comes to being a part of this work.
Chris Sandel: Definitely. When I’m working with clients, we’ll typically set a goal for the next week or two weeks, and a lot of the time it is a goal around food or around reducing movement or whatever it may be – and there are often times where the goal is, “I want you to notice your emotions this week” or “I want you to have awareness of where you are on the polyvagal ladder and bring more awareness to that this week.” That is also a really meaningful goal, and actually it’s often a lot of that stuff that makes the difference long-term.
Kimmie Singh: I completely agree.
01:08:11
Chris Sandel: I know you are also a contributor for the Center for Mindful Eating and for their certification programme. For listeners who are unaware of what mindful eating is, are you able to describe what this is?
Kimmie Singh: Absolutely. Oh gosh, it’s really bringing a lot of presence and intentionality around being at one when also eating or while also experiencing food and body. I feel like one of the reasons it means so much to me is because it was definitely a foundational part of my recovery. I think it’s a really special way for us to be present with our bodies connecting to the world around us, which is really what eating is. It’s bringing something from the world around us into our bodies and then helping our bodies in this really physiological way.
So it’s really cool to notice the food, how your five senses are experiencing a meal or a snack, and then also noticing what it feels like for you in your body to even make those observations. I feel like it definitely adds another dimension to eating that’s not always talked about.
Chris Sandel: Are there tenets or principles to mindful eating in the same way as there are with intuitive eating?
Kimmie Singh: I’ve seen different approaches around it. The way I practice it is a bit more of I want you to slow down, take a step back, and really experience it from a bit of a more wholesome way. I appreciate it because it feels like it’s a little bit less maybe shoulders- or neck-up than intuitive eating and a bit more shoulders-down or how your body’s experiencing it. It goes back to even taking it out of the theoretical and really bringing it more into how it’s showing up in the world, how your body’s showing up in the world, and also creating space for it to just be. For a body or a food to neither be good nor bad, but for it to just be. I think it can just help so many folks that might get in their head around mealtimes.
Chris Sandel: From what you’re saying there, the thing that comes up for me is the awareness piece. Awareness without judgment. Just noticing, “Oh, I was eating that meal a little quicker than usual” or “That had a slightly different texture” or “I wasn’t paying attention when I was having that thing” or whatever it may be, but just this awareness of ‘what was I like when I was eating’. Is that part of it?
Kimmie Singh: Exactly, and then taking some of that judgment away. It opens so much more space for curiosity, and I feel like it really then can help bridge the gap to maybe, what are your food preferences, or how do you like to plate your meals, or where do you like to sit? How does your body experience these things differently? So it can also be a little bit of a bridge to some of those conversations as well.
Chris Sandel: Conversations maybe around satisfaction, that kind of thing?
Kimmie Singh: Around satisfaction, preferences, maybe cultural foods. Just different ways to experience mealtime from a curious way, if that makes sense.
Chris Sandel: It does. Are there any places where it feels like for you mindful eating and intuitive eating are in opposition? Because from what you described there, I could see how they could sit together quite nicely. Are there ways where you’re like, “They feel a little bit in opposition here”?
Kimmie Singh: Oh gosh. I don’t think so. I imagine if I was to do a deep theoretical dive, I might be able to find some ways that they are, but I find that they work pretty well going hand in hand. But I find that they’re both tools to help people, once again, explore their own food philosophy and build their own food philosophy.
Chris Sandel: I’m wondering as well, are there times where you don’t use mindful eating? Because I’m thinking of certain clients where actually, this hyper-focus on all of the different aspects of the meal is just not helpful and, as counterintuitive as it may sound, adding some distractions is really helpful.
Kimmie Singh: Oh, absolutely. I don’t feel like mindful eating is the right thing at all stages of recovery or for all people in all circumstances. Similarly with intuitive eating. I feel like they can be helpful tools at times, and it’s not the only way and it’s definitely not the way for all stages in this work.
Chris Sandel: Sounds like we’re on the same page on that one.
Kimmie Singh: I feel like everyone’s needs are really individualised. Even as I mentioned it was a helpful tool for me at one point, that was at one point. That wasn’t the whole way through. And even if you find that it’s just not for you, that’s okay too. There’s no obligation to feel like that’s the right way to do it.
01:13:48
Chris Sandel: One of the things I’ve heard you talk about on other podcasts is helping clients to redefine health, and I think you might even mention this on your site as well. Can you talk a little about this and what that looks like?
Kimmie Singh: Absolutely. Just from the way the world, especially here in the States, the way we talk about health, it comes from such an ableist perspective of trying to maybe maintain youth forever, trying to avoid all sorts of health conditions that are naturally going to show up with age.
I find that for me, especially as someone with PCOS, a lot of the way I explore health for myself is what helps me live a full life. With maintaining and managing my PCOS, it does involve doing some stuff around my physical health, but my relational health – like how are my relationships, my friendships, my partner with my husband – that’s a really important part of my health. How am I connecting to others in my community? How am I connecting to my values? How is my mental health? So I feel like I have a bit more of an expansive idea when it comes to my own health, and I also think it’s really important for people to be able to explore how they want to live and explore the world outside of this really rigid idea that they need to maybe be void of all disease states or void of any form of aging. I don’t think that’s really realistic or creates space to be with their body without judgment, if that makes sense.
Chris Sandel: Yeah. How do clients take this when you’re having this conversation? Are they open and embracing of it?
Kimmie Singh: I find that they are. I find that especially leading with the curious piece of they get to decide what their future, especially when it comes to health, looks like, it’s something that brings up some big questions. I think it can be toughest for folks with chronic illness just because sometimes it means also recognising that there’s not a magic pill that’s going to make everything go away. And also, there can be a lot of relief in that, in knowing that you don’t need to spend your life searching for that magic pill.
Chris Sandel: Definitely. I so agree with that, because I think so much that gets left out of the health conversation is context. The reality is, not everyone is going to live to 100. To think that that’s where we have to get to and that that’s a reality, it’s not going to happen. So to be able to say “This is where you find yourself, this is the context of the situation; what are the things that are most important for your health at this point, given this context?”
Kimmie Singh: Exactly. I think it’s really empowering for people to get to decide because when I even think back to that doctor’s appointment where I was being yelled at, a lot of times we’re used to having providers tell us what health should look like or what it means in terms of labs or whatever else, but really, when you have that power to decide, nobody can take that away from you.
Chris Sandel: Yeah. And if I’m ever telling clients anything in this realm, it’s we need to be a lot more broad in our thinking around health. For so many people, it’s food and exercise and that’s it, whereas, as you talked about, what are my relationships like? What is my mental health like? There’s so many things that make a difference.
I’m thinking of a client I’ve been working with for a while now, and the single biggest thing that has made a difference for her and her health is doing 10 minutes of yoga each morning. Her getting on the mat and just doing a little bit of stretching. It’s mostly stretching and mindfulness. That, hands down, makes more of a difference for her than anything. Just having that recognition and her then being able to think, “If I’m getting sucked into the diet culture nonsense, I can come back to this, I can remind myself how much of a difference that one practice makes for me to remind myself why I don’t need to go down the road of exploring XYZ.”
Kimmie Singh: Oh, I love that. It’s so beautiful. It’s even making me think of something that I’ve been exploring in my personal life, I feel like over the last year or so, but especially lately: the small rituals and how they just add so much to our day and to each moment and can really bring us to the present moment by creating space for them.
Chris Sandel: Is there a specific ritual that you want to share?
Kimmie Singh: Oh gosh, I’m trying to think because there are so many I’ve been playing around with. For Christmas, I got a new coffeemaker, and it has been so nice to just have this really good cup of coffee and have a really slow moment in my morning. No matter what’s going on, no matter what I have that day, just to have this really slow cup of coffee where I can think about what I want for the day – that’s been really powerful.
So I’ve been playing around with adding things before and after that cup of coffee and just seeing what sticks and what feels right. I appreciate that it’s probably going to change, and similar to other things, there are going to be times when my needs are different. I think having that openness to explore has been really beautiful.
Chris Sandel: Nice. It’s interesting hearing you say that, because we have a coffee machine at home and I’ll make a coffee every morning, but more than that, I’m the one in the household who gets up and makes breakfast. We have a sit-down breakfast together every morning and I’ll make a really nice breakfast. We’ve got a lovely platter and I’ll cut up loads of fruit, I’ll do eggs and toast and cereal. There’s just all of these different options, and then we’ll sit down and have breakfast together. I know I’m very privileged to not have to be rushing off to get into an office, that I am able to spend this time in the morning and have breakfast as a family. It’s just such a lovely, grounding time of the day.
Kimmie Singh: It is. I hear you. It’s just so nice to know that that’s going to be a consistent part of the day.
01:21:09
Chris Sandel: Yes, definitely. I know you’ve also talked at conferences about the topic of weight stigma. Are you able to share some of the content of what you cover in those talks?
Kimmie Singh: It really ranges. I try to present what we know from the research, and I also try to add the nuance of fat activists have been saying this stuff and telling people these things way before we’ve seen it demonstrated in the research. What’s the ramifications of that, and what does that imply? We know that there’s still so much we don’t know, but activists do know. [laughs] I think it goes back to, even for me, reminding myself that I am really an expert here, even though I’m not a researcher, and even though at times I might doubt my experience. I try to bring it into my work as well. But I think that’s a really big part of my talks.
What else, what else? I think another thing that tends to surprise folks is when I talk about some of the physiological effects of weight stigma and how we see it really affecting glucose metabolism and how we see it affecting lipid panels. Experiencing that chronic stress on a regular basis really affects us on this very cellular level. It really makes me curious. It’s like, how much don’t we know right now that’s happening, and how is it affecting us and our energy as we’re navigating the day?
I feel like the topic is really broad, and it shows up in so many different areas of life. A lot of times I end up presenting to providers. My big recommendation is that, especially as providers with privilege, you have to recognise that there are going to be so many experiences that your patients or your clients have that might be really different from yours, and you just have to be open to listening and learning in those moments.
Chris Sandel: Just a couple of things connected to what you said there in terms of the effects that weight bias and stigma has on the body. I always find it doesn’t make sense to me when there’s these comments of ‘we know that someone’s weight is having an impact on this disease’. I’m always like, how do we know that when we’re not seeing that weight removed from the situation of stigma? We don’t have this clear other control group to compare it to where there are people who are in larger bodies who are talked very positively about their bodies. Everyone is in the same world.
So it’s not that I don’t think that someone’s weight can have any impact on their health; I’m not saying that at all. And I also don’t think that we can be so confident that this is definitely down to someone’s weight.
Kimmie Singh: Right, I agree. It’s also what’s so concerning about even the research that’s talking about weight stigma. It’s really not even coming from a true fat-positive perspective, so the information that we have, the data is still being analysed and interpreted by people that are thin or by people that still seem to have a lot of their own fatphobia. What we do know is through this really fatphobic lens.
Chris Sandel: Yeah. Also, connected to your experience, we also know the outcome of what happens when people internalise these ideas. It’s not like all the people that we use weight stigma for are now happier, healthier by all of these different metrics and it’s really enhanced their lives. That’s just not the outcome. Across the board, it makes things worse.
Kimmie Singh: Yeah, it’s not even up for debate. I think that’s what also, for me, feels really frustrating. This wasn’t even talked about in my graduate programme. It really wasn’t. fatness is discussed so much in nutrition training, but how do we fail to discuss the harmful effects of fatphobia? It makes me very frustrated.
Chris Sandel: Yeah, I don’t remember ever having it in the course that I did. I know you’re now back at the university and talking about Health At Every Size as part of that internship. How much do you cover weight stigma as part of that?
Kimmie Singh: Definitely it’s a big part of the talks. I do a couple talks for them, and that’s definitely a really big part of it. So those dietitians are getting that training. And even for the undergrad students there, the professors now are teaching them about it. But I don’t know many programmes at all in the entire nation that are talking about it. It’s just so upsetting and it’s also a disservice to these students.
Chris Sandel: You may not know the answer to this, but I’m just going to ask anyway. I am seeing that there is this shift in dietetics, and in certain dietetic trainings. Do you know if there’s any of this in other areas of medicine?
Kimmie Singh: In terms of talking about weight stigma?
Chris Sandel: Yeah. And maybe I’m being a little too hopeful here, but it does feel like within dietetics, there is being more of an embrace of Health At Every Size.
Kimmie Singh: I agree with you. I don’t see it as much in other fields yet, but I do think it’s going to change. When I think of the Health At Every Size providers, I could be wrong, but I’m pretty confident that most of them are dietitians. Which makes sense, because dietitians are the ones that are working around weight and food so much. So it definitely makes sense why it’s starting with dietitians. Then after that I would say it’s probably therapists and other mental health specialists and whatnot.
There are pockets where I see it being discussed with nurses and with physicians, but I don’t see there to be any group as close as dietitians. And maybe that’s because of my own bias and where I’m working the most, but I am still hopeful that it’s going to catch on. I still am.
Chris Sandel: When you are giving talks to health care providers, is it other dietitians? Or it’s a mix?
Kimmie Singh: Oh, it’s a mix. Sometimes it’s other dietitians, sometimes it’s mental health providers. Recently I did a panel for medical students. Sometimes there are medical offices where there’s a mix of providers, some physicians, some nurses, nurse practitioners. It is a mix, definitely a mix. Which is another sign, once again, for there to be reason to be hopeful.
Chris Sandel: Is it something that that person has to elect to go to? I’m wondering are you getting any pushback because this is something that’s forced upon them and they’re not necessarily on board with this as an idea?
Kimmie Singh: In that way, it depends. The talks where people are required to go, there can be some pushback, but the pushback isn’t around the weight stigma piece. The pushback is more so around ‘is it ethical to still be promoting weight loss’ and some of the nuances around health and weight. But I find that most people are pretty receptive and appreciate learning about the harmful effects of weight stigma. And most people want to learn how to be less stigmatising in their practice.
Chris Sandel: With the pushback that you’re receiving around the ethics piece, how do you deal with that? What are some of the things that you will say to someone who is more skeptical?
Kimmie Singh: First, unfortunately, so many of these providers are so uninformed around the research around weight loss. There’s a lot of 101 info that they don’t know. It’s almost hard sometimes to be on the same page because they really are so uninformed, so a lot of it is offering some of that basic info of like ‘do you know the stats around likelihood of weight loss sticking’ or ‘do you know the stats around how shame affects eating behaviours’ and things like that.
A lot of times I tell folks I’m less invested in trying to prove to you that fat has no impact on health and I’m more invested in you learning that your harmful weight loss recommendations are really backfiring, and it’s really causing a lot of mayhem in people’s relationships with food. So that’s where I try to focus more on, and where I think there seems to be a little bit more openness around change.
Chris Sandel: And I think you can deal with those two things separately. You can say we don’t even have to get into whether weight and health are intimately connected; what we can just look at is the way that you are trying to have weight loss occur is hands down not working. So even if you think that it should be a good endeavour and someone should be pursuing that, we don’t have a way of making this stick, so that’s not the conversation.
Kimmie Singh: Right, exactly. But I really do find that a lot of providers say that they feel like these conversations are missing in their professions. I find that a lot of providers are really hungry for this information.
Chris Sandel: Nice. I’m glad that you’re out there and being able to provide that for them.
Kimmie Singh: Thanks. Me too.
01:32:04
Chris Sandel: Another thing – and I think this could be on your site or it could be from conversations I’ve heard you have on other podcasts – is around reframing beauty ideals. Talk about this and how you do this work with clients.
Kimmie Singh: Oh gosh, I was just talking about this recently. There are a few things that stand out as we approach this topic, one being that there are still beauty ideals that I see in fat positive or plus size, body positive spaces. That can be even around the hourglass shape. This even goes back to the PCOS, carrying more weight in your midsection or in your belly. That’s a really big one that I don’t think people are talking about as much, or even what it means to carry more fat around your face versus other parts of your body and how that might go against the beauty ideal that we see in plus size spaces.
But even beyond that, and although I want everybody to question beauty ideals, I always want to remind folks that you don’t owe the world beauty. There’s so much more to contribute to this world outside of beauty. That’s where I feel like I do a lot of this work: questioning the beauty ideal, and also, you don’t owe the world beauty. I think it’s similar to how I talk about health. I want to question how we discuss fatness in health – and you don’t owe the world health. I think there are so many similarities there.
Chris Sandel: Nice. I agree with this. I think there is that idea of expanding what we consider beautiful and beauty ideals, and also questioning, why is this thing important?
Kimmie Singh: Exactly. I think that’s also why I appreciate mindfulness so much. It takes it away from the judgment or categorising it as good or bad or as beautiful or not, and more so as ‘it just is’.
Chris Sandel: Yeah. Again, when you’re having these conversations with clients, how much are they embracing this? How much is this a really challenging thing for someone to get on board with?
Kimmie Singh: This can be really challenging. It can be tough, especially when it comes to the desirability piece and just feeling that pressure to want to be desirable, especially in this traditional, patriarchal male gaze. That being said, I also want to add that although it can be really tough, I see folks work past this and I see folks feel more confident and feel more comfortable in their bodies, and it’s really special when that’s the case.
Chris Sandel: Just from your own experience with this, are there practical things that you can remember really helped, whether it was a particular conversation or a particular article or resource?
Kimmie Singh: I think it was really checking in with what I needed. I feel like for me to feel more connected to my body, it felt like it was less about seeing my body represented visually, but more so feeling like I could connect with somebody in how I want to take up space in the world.
I’m thinking of Roxane Gay, the author, and how for me, seeing a woman of colour who also is brilliant and such a good writer – that just felt so admirable to me, and that felt like somebody I wanted to look up to. I felt like I could identify with Roxane Gay more than I could with these other people that I would see on Instagram that would be wearing these really cool clothes or things like that.
So I found it really helpful just to check in with how I wanted to contribute to the world outside of this idea of beauty.
Chris Sandel: So seeing someone that felt similar to you, being successful in ways that you think matte rand you value in this world, that was the helpful piece.
Kimmie Singh: Yeah, exactly. It felt like I was seeing something demonstrated that I didn’t even know could exist, and that felt really powerful.
Chris Sandel: Nice. The thing about this is it chimes a lot with so much of what the body image work is that I work on with clients, which ends up being not very much about the aesthetics of a body, but ends up being about, how do you enjoy spending your time, and how do you set boundaries, and how do you have meaningful things in your life? When all of those things start to happen, then there can be a lot less of a priority put on beauty, and you can start to see how less important this thing is because you’re living the life, even though this thing hasn’t changed.
Kimmie Singh: Right, definitely. And just realising that although it might feel like it’s so significant to be beautiful, it’s not necessarily the truth. I think questioning that was pretty powerful for me.
Chris Sandel: I think the other realisation is that at some point, this is all going away. Everyone ages. I mean, everyone very quickly ages out of what is the beauty ideal. So realising that this is always going to happen, from that perspective.
And I also think that the people who are hit the hardest with that are the people who have built their identity off the back of their looks and their beauty.
Kimmie Singh: Right. I completely agree. I think it can be really difficult to realise just the temporary nature of how the world sees beauty and how you really want to make an impact on this world, or leave an impact.
01:38:41
Chris Sandel: Yeah. I saw on your Instagram that there is a bill in New York City about weight discrimination, and you’ve been doing something connected to that. Tell me more about what it is and what you’ve been doing.
Kimmie Singh: Yeah, I pretty recently found out that New York was going to have a vote a couple weeks ago – I think two weeks to be exact, so this is like the two-week anniversary of the hearing. But yeah, New York is in the process of making it illegal to discriminate against employment and also housing and public access. What that would mean is that – unfortunately, most of the country, it’s legal to discriminate against folks for employment or housing or even the public access piece, so if you just want to go to a restaurant, somebody can say, “Nope, we don’t want you here. You’re too fat.”
There are just a handful of places in the U.S. where it’s illegal. New York is in the process of hopefully making it illegal. We should have a final answer within the next couple of months or so. I was lucky enough to testify about my own experiences of being denied volunteering options and being told when I was doing my rotations that I likely wouldn’t be able to get a clinical site that I wanted because of my body size. So being able to testify there very much felt like full circle, just in trying to make a change in this way.
Chris Sandel: Nice. How was that experience for you of testifying?
Kimmie Singh: I was so nervous, Chris. [laughs] I was so nervous. You know, there are some things you’re going to be nervous about. I felt like I was terrified but it was a good kind of nervous. It was really cool to hopefully be a part of history in that way.
Chris Sandel: Yeah, I’ll keep an eye and see what happens with this, because it seems crazy that at this point, this can still go on.
Kimmie Singh: I completely agree. There seems to be a lot of support from the politicians in New York that will be hopefully passing the bill, so that’s pretty exciting.
Chris Sandel: Nice. Fingers crossed on that front. Kimmie, this has been such a nice conversation. Where should people go if they want to be finding out more about you?
Kimmie Singh: People can go to my website, www.bodyhonornutrition.com, or on Instagram @bodyhonornutrition. I think those are probably the best places.
Chris Sandel: Perfect. I will put all of that in the show notes, and thank you so much for your time. This has been great.
Kimmie Singh: Thank you.
Chris Sandel: That was my conversation with Kimmie Singh. She’s doing incredible work, and I’m glad that there are dietitians like her out there in this world.
That is it for this week’s show. I’ll be back next week with another episode. Take care of yourself, and I’ll catch you then.
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