Episode 268: This week on the show I'm chatting with William Hornby. Wiliam has risen to prominence on social media, speaking about men's eating disorders and mental health and “The Power of Becoming the Advocate You Needed.” We chat about recovery, the rise of eating disorders in boys and men, toxic masculinity and much more.
William Hornby is at the forefront of raising awareness for men with eating disorders with his advocacy on social media. He speaks publicly on advocacy, mental health, and eating disorder recovery. He travels around the world both in person and virtually giving workshops and presentations on “The Power of Becoming the Advocate You Needed”.
He is the recipient of the William Donald Schaefer Helping People Award for 2021. He is a member of the Eating Disorder Coalition’s Youth Advisory Board and the National Alliance for Eating Disorders’ Collaborative. He has also worked with the National Eating Disorder Association and Project HEAL.
He graduated from Temple University in 2022 with a BBA in Business Management and BFA in Musical Theater. He is also a singer-songwriter with music about recovery and mental health, including “Clay”, touted as a body neutral anthem. He is an exceptional pumpkin carver and theater performer as well.
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Chris Sandel: Welcome to Episode 268 of Real Health Radio. You can find the show notes and the links talked about as part of this episode at www.seven-health.com/268.
Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Real Health Radio. I’m your host, Chris Sandel. I’m a nutritionist and coach, and I help clients who are stuck in quasi-recovery restore their health and end eating disorder behaviours so they can regain their periods, sleep through the night, improve body image, and have a peaceful relationship with food and exercise.
Before I get started with today’s episode, I want to mention that I’m taking on new clients again. Client work is the core of my business and the thing I enjoy the most. After working with clients for 15 years, I feel very confident in saying I’m very good at what I do. So if you want to get unstuck and reach a place of full recovery, then I would love to help. You can head over to www.seven-health.com/help, and there you can read about how I work with clients and apply for a free recovery strategy call. At the time of recording this intro, there are three spots left. The address, again, is www.seven-health.com/help, and I’ll put a link to that in the show notes.
On to today’s show. This week it is a guest interview, and my guest today is William Hornby. William is at the forefront of raising awareness for men with eating disorders and his advocacy on social media. He speaks publicly on advocacy, mental health, and eating disorder recovery. He travels around the world, both in-person and virtually, giving workshops and presentations on the power of becoming the advocate you needed. He is a recipient of the William Donald Schaefer Helping People Award in 2021. He’s a member of the Eating Disorder Coalitions Youth Advisory Board and the National Alliance for Eating Disorders Collaborative. He has also worked with the National Eating Disorder Association and Project Heal.
He’s a graduate from Temple University in 2022 with a BBA in business management and a BFA in musical theatre. He’s also a singer/songwriter with music about recovery and mental health, including ‘Clay’, touted as a body-neutral anthem. He is an exceptional pumpkin carver and theatre performer as well.
I became aware of William through a client of mine. She followed him on Instagram and TikTok and loved his videos, so I went on and checked out what he was doing and loved it. So I reached out and asked him to come on the show.
As part of this episode, we chat about William’s history with food and his body and how this developed into an eating disorder; we talk about the rise of eating disorders among boys and men and some of the reasons for this increase; we cover masculinity and toxic masculinity and mental health in men. We discuss William’s rise to prominence on social media and how he’s navigated being an advocate for eating disorder recovery while going through his own recovery. And we talk about social media more generally and whether it’s a positive or a negative thing for eating disorder recovery.
When we recorded this episode, there was a big storm going on at my end the internet wasn’t great. It meant that there was a long lag time between one person chatting and the other person hearing it, and this can make having a conversation much more challenging than it otherwise would be. So while I’ve edited out the long gaps, I do wish we’d recorded this under better conditions. Also, for some strange reason, my microphone starts to sound weird from about halfway onwards. I tried to clean this up, but it is what it is.
But despite these issues, I really liked this conversation with William and hearing what he had to share. At the end of the show, I have a recommendation for you, but for now, let’s get on with it. Here is my conversation with William Hornby.
Hey, William. Welcome to Real Health Radio. I’m really excited to be chatting with you on the show today.
William Hornby: Hello. I’m so honoured to be on today. Thank you so much for inviting me.
Chris Sandel: You are someone who is doing incredible work in the area of men’s eating disorders and more generally men’s mental health. You’re someone who has personal experience with an eating disorder, so I know this is an issue that is very personal to you, so there is a lot of stuff that I want to be able to cover with you today.
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I guess just as a starting point, do you want to give listeners a bit of background on yourself, like who you are and what you do?
William Hornby: Absolutely. Hello, everyone. I am William Hornby. I advocate on the internet and I work with many different organisations, both for-profit and non-profit, here in the United States that deal with eating disorders. I advocate for men’s eating disorder recovery in particular, but overall just eating disorder recovery in general.
I developed an eating disorder around the time I was 11 years old, and while it took on many different forms throughout my young adult life, I was not diagnosed until I was 21 and didn’t really, really take it seriously until then, either. It was a very hard thing to come to terms with having an eating disorder as a man, especially when I looked for representation from men with eating disorders and fell short of finding any, and then asked my dietitian and my therapist to look for it for me and they also fell short. It was a really hard time, and probably would’ve caused a relapse if I hadn’t had the support system that I have.
I grew up doing musical theatre. I have acted professionally and pre-professionally, and I got a BFA in musical theatre in college. I also got a BBA in business management. I’m also a gay man, and gay men have a lot of eating disorders baked into their culture. Coming from theatre, which eating disorders are very prevalent, and being a gay man, that also influenced my eating disorder. And also just a familial tradition, almost, of dieting for the intention of weight loss is also what I come from.
Chris Sandel: There’s a lot there that I want to go through in a bit more detail. You said eating disorder started at age 11, but if we go back earlier than that, if you think of you as a small child, what was it like growing up in your household as far as food was concerned?
William Hornby: We always subscribed to the diet culture trends of the moment. Truly, it wasn’t until my puberty weight gain was brought up to me as a problem that it really started to impact the way that I saw myself. It was really an introduction into this world of disordered eating and really our social and moral systems of anti-fatness.
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Chris Sandel: In terms of the theatre piece – you mentioned that was a big part of who you are – how does this play into it? I’m someone who does not have a history of theatre. I love movies, but I was never the theatre kid at school, so I don’t know what that experience is like and how much that area is steeped in diet culture. Can you talk to that?
William Hornby: Absolutely. The theatre industry and theatre as we know it in the Western world is very much rooted in white supremacy, and especially musical theatre is rooted in stealing from enslaved people and from Black culture in general in the United States. So it’s really important to acknowledge that that anti-Blackness, that white supremacy, comes in tandem with anti-fatness. There are common beliefs among actors seeking out jobs, as well as the reality of the situation being that a lot of casting directors and even people who accept students into theatre training programmes will often not hire you on the basis of your size. You’re being looked at and really discriminated against based on the way that you look because theatre is a visual medium, and that medium has been highly influenced to operate in anti-fat and white supremacist ways.
Chris Sandel: Maybe I feel a little naïve with this, but I associate that very much with ballet and with other things that kids do. But I just hadn’t thought about it in terms of the pressures of theatre at that school level, and that this is a part of it too.
William Hornby: Absolutely. It’s not naïve at all to tie that to ballet. A lot of dance, especially, in our modern society has grown in tandem with musical theatre. Musical theatre includes a lot of dance. A lot of actors who do musical theatre must be dancers in order to work. And that unfortunately comes with its own set of really, quite frankly, racist and anti-fat body standards.
Those can be drawn back to many figures – specifically Balanchine, who had a very particular aesthetic that he expected from his white women, who were ballet dancers for him. He would insist that they do not eat and that that be a part of the aesthetic that they strived to attain.
Chris Sandel: Wow. It is so messed up when you explain it so simply like that. To be someone who is creative and dance and this thing that actually is very beautiful for lots of different reasons in terms of the joy of movement, etc., is very much tainted by this thing that is like “Now you have to not eat and now your body has to look this way” as opposed to just enjoying the expression.
William Hornby: Absolutely. And it’s important to point out that those forms of expression and those art forms do not require a certain body size. Specifically dance does not require anything other than technique and musculature to support those movements. The presence of fat on the body is not really a factor in the ability to partake in not only that form of movement, but that form of art. It doesn’t matter how much weight you have on your body. There are fat ballerinas and they are brilliant dancers.
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Chris Sandel: What was your experience like with this? You said your eating disorder really started at age 11; what was happening then around you at that time? Was there reinforcing of that behaviour in terms of ‘now I’m getting picked for a particular spot in the musical theatre’ or ‘now I’m getting compliments from friends or family members to reinforce this’? What was going on at this same time?
William Hornby: It was really rooted in family dynamics starting out, and then as time went on, being in theatre really influenced all of this. There was a point in time where I was like, I need to be incredibly, incredibly thin if I want to get into musical theatre school, and that absolutely influenced the way I approached my body and the way I approached eating. It came from a very anti-fat place that was not only from my own anti-fatness, but it was also from the understanding that the industry that I was looking to train pre-professionally in might not accept me into it due to its own anti-fatness, depending on my body size.
When you feel like your potential career is on the line due to an oppressive system, a lot of times the way people engage with that is to try to fix themselves to fit within that oppressive system and not to advocate to dismantle that oppressive system.
Chris Sandel: I totally agree with you. I was going to say, when you were doing this, was this very much ‘this is an internal struggle, this is a personal issue; I’m not telling anyone, I’m going to try and pass as if I’m naturally thinner than I am’? Or this was more an open secret and everyone was talking about all the dieting they were having to do to actually live up to these standards?
William Hornby: I think it was very much a mixture of both. There was definitely stuff I was doing that I wasn’t necessarily telling people about. There was definitely stuff I was doing that I was telling people about that should’ve been a red flag. It might’ve been a red flag if I had been a woman but was not because I was a man.
Also, it is very common to talk about what you are doing to stay thin within theatre spaces. It is very extreme, often, and it is a really horrible environment to be around, especially when you have fat actors in the room, especially when you have people of size in the room. It’s quite frankly discriminatory, it’s anti-fat, and it makes what is a workplace a lot less safe for a lot of people.
Chris Sandel: When did it feel like, for you, it switched from being ‘something that I’m pursuing that I think is really helpful’ to ‘I can really recognise how harmful this is’? Was that at age 11 or it’s not until much, much later that there is that recognition?
William Hornby: There were sprinklings of that recognition throughout my older life in that decade / time period that I was dealing with an eating disorder untreated. But I don’t think it was really until I stumbled into recovery that I realised that I was going through a legitimate problem that actually mattered and was diagnosable and was treatable.
You have to remember also that a lot of people’s understanding of what an eating disorder is, what an eating disorder looks like, is anorexia nervosa and the diagnostic criteria surrounding that, or bulimia nervosa and the diagnostic criteria surrounding that. If you start to investigate whether you have an eating disorder and you find something like what I have, which is Other Specified Feeding or Eating Disorders (OSFED, for the uninitiated), you end up thinking, “Oh, so I don’t actually have a problem” or “Oh, it’s not a real eating disorder.” That even was a thought that I had upon diagnosis with OSFED. I was like, “Oh, so it’s not actually that important that I work on this. It’s just like I’m weird around food.”
And that is not the reality. Truly, if you have any kind of negative emotional relationship to your diet or the way that you’re eating, that is probably an eating disorder of some type and you should get help with it, regardless of how seemingly insignificant it is, because often a symptom of eating disorders is this belief that your eating disorder is not bad enough to seek help. But the truth and the reality of it is that if you don’t put a Band-Aid on this scratch on your hand, it could get infected. And if it gets infected and you don’t do anything about that infection, it’s going to become a much larger problem.
Why would you let it become a much larger problem when you could put a Band-Aid on it and put some Neosporin on it and let it heal? Don’t wait for it to get really bad in order to take yourself seriously. If you are dealing with anything that is negatively impacting your life and you have the resources to do so – even if you don’t have the resources to do so – you should really consider trying to get help in any way you can.
Chris Sandel: I completely second that. To add to that, the diagnosis that you got is pretty much the most common diagnosis for an eating disorder. Yes, it is the catch-all exclusion eating disorder because of how specific it is to have anorexia or bulimia and the frequency that things have to be happening, etc. It means that the vast majority of people are diagnosed with what you were diagnosed with, and that in no way says anything about the severity of it. It’s not that you had a less severe eating disorder and someone else has a more severe eating disorder.
Even with anorexia, the common stereotype of anorexia is someone who is in an emaciated body, and the person who is in a larger body who is suffering with anorexia is suffering just as much. It’s called atypical anorexia, and actually it happens way more frequently. I just really want to hammer this point home because I think there’s a real misunderstanding and misconception that unless you’re fitting up to some stereotype and some eating disorder that people know the name of, that it can’t be severe, and that is just not true.
William Hornby: Absolutely. It’s also important to point out that eating disorders are mental health problems first. If you are experiencing physical symptoms, really physical consequences of disordered eating, of an eating disorder, obviously it’s really, really important to address that. A lot of times that looks like ‘weight restoring’ with patients who have anorexia nervosa. But that work doesn’t end once you’re ‘weight restored’. It doesn’t end just because you are no longer experiencing negative physical consequences of having an eating disorder. If you are still having the disordered thoughts, that is still having an eating disorder.
Working towards not having those thoughts, working towards talking yourself down when you do have those thoughts – all of that is really important in eating disorder recovery.
Chris Sandel: What was your initial reaction like when you were diagnosed? I know you talked a little there about “I’m feeling like this isn’t really an official eating disorder or maybe it’s not so bad”, but what were your thoughts? Were you surprised that “Hey, I fit this criteria, I’m being diagnosed with an eating disorder”?
William Hornby: Oh, no, I was not surprised, but I was still like, “This doesn’t make me feel any more validated, really.” [laughs] It made me honestly mistrust my therapist because I was so insistent that I was probably making it up for attention. But I wasn’t. And having any kind of problems with eating is worth addressing.
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Chris Sandel: What has your recovery looked like since then? You can talk about things that stand out or things that have been really helpful, but what has it looked like for you?
William Hornby: Lately, it looks like the freedom to eat what I want to eat when I want to eat it, which obviously comes with the privilege of having access to a wide variety of food. But I really try to enjoy a wide variety of foods when I can and give myself grace around eating, knowing that I’m eating to fuel my body. If my body wants it, that is okay.
It also looks like really reintroducing movement back into my life in a way that is not disordered. Recovery also looks like – I work doing this on social media, so I get a lot of comments and stories thrown my way of people who are actively suffering with eating disorders and not in recovery. When I get those comments, when they come up, I think to myself, “Oh my goodness, that is so disordered.” And if I have a similar thought later in the day, I think to myself, “Oh my goodness, if it was disordered when they were saying it, it’s definitely disordered when I’m thinking it.” That really helps me to maintain my recovery.
Chris Sandel: Nice. When did you discover Health At Every Size and anti-fatness and all of that? How early into your recovery was that?
William Hornby: It was really when I started doing social media work regarding eating disorders that I started to really delve into anti-fatness, the dismantling of anti-fatness, reading fat liberatory work, all of that. That really came with studying this topic more thoroughly and making sure I was advocating responsibly – though I will say that a good bit before I started advocating on social media, I had this understanding that there is this anti-fatness that exists, though I didn’t quite have the vocabulary to talk about it.
And I did understand that dieting on some level did not really work, as an observation of people in my life who had intentionally pursued weight loss and ultimately gained it all back, because that is generally what happens when people intentionally pursue weight loss. And that is not to place any kind of value judgment on weight cycling or even the raising of a natural set point. That is just the fact of the matter. Intentional weight loss often does not work.
Chris Sandel: Yeah. For you, how helpful was it discovering this as part of your recovery? Because when I look at the content that you’re putting out and how much this is really central to your message, it really feels, at least from an outsider looking in, that this has been a really big, important piece of recovery and that this is something that has really propelled you forward.
William Hornby: It absolutely has. It’s definitely a really important part of my own recovery, but even more than that, I think it is an important part of advocating for eating disorder recovery. Most eating disorders – and that’s not to say all eating disorders by any means, but most eating disorders are rooted in anti-fatness and a fear of becoming fat. And all eating disorders exist within an anti-fat society.
So even if your eating disorder does not have anti-fatness at its core, you’ve still been brought up in an anti-fat society and still have the responsibility of unlearning anti-fatness, as every single person in society does, because we should all be working to unlearn the support that we have been taught to give to these oppressive systems that we exist within. It’s very important to advocate for the dismantling of anti-fatness and anti-Blackness and all forms of oppression when working towards raising awareness for eating disorder recovery in particular.
I think a lot of eating disorder recovery advocacy falls short in that it doesn’t have a very nuanced understanding of anti-fatness the way that it exists within our society and the way that it influences eating disorders. A lot of times you’ll see people distancing themselves from fatness by calling themselves ‘mid-size’ or saying things like ‘normalise normal bodies’. But that falls short of normalising all bodies.
A lot of discriminatory language gets thrown around within the eating disorder recovery world, and that language makes recovery more inaccessible for a lot of people. It does not actually help them because specifically for fat people with eating disorders, saying that a ‘mid-size’ body is deserving of eating disorder recovery, there’s an unspoken part of that that says ‘because they are not fat’. There is an unspoken implication when it comes to even identifying as a mid-size person and saying like ‘the mid-size girlies should have their moment’. There’s an unspoken rejection of fat bodies that is there.
Chris Sandel: With the work that I do, I am very clear with people about this part. It’s really disheartening to hear stories of clients who have been to inpatient centres or have worked with other therapists or people where so much of the messaging they got was really just colluding with the eating disorder. Someone working up the courage in an inpatient facility to say, “Hey, I’m still hungry” and being told “No, you’re not allowed to have any more food” or being told by a therapist, “We’ll help you recover, but don’t worry, we’re not going to let you get fat” – this messaging that is really just playing into the hands of the eating disorder.
So I’m very much about your body is going to do what your body’s going to do. It’s going to heal the way it’s going to heal. I don’t know what is going to happen with your weight, and your body will figure this out. We can’t be setting some goal weight and saying “Yeah, you’re going to be recovered at this point” because we just don’t know that. So yeah, I very much take this approach when talking with people.
And I want to be blunt about this, because otherwise people get stuck into a situation where they then start to believe “I can’t recover. This is something that I will never be able to get over” because there’s this misbelief about “I should be recovered by the point I hit this BMI, and I’ve hit this BMI and I still have all of the thoughts and I’m still really struggling. So if I’m still really struggling and I’m having these thoughts, I’m better off just being at a lower weight anyway because this is as good as it’s going to get.” It gets people stuck in this place as opposed to helping them genuinely find true freedom and true liberation from this. So yeah, we are definitely on the same page with this.
William Hornby: Yeah, for sure.
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Chris Sandel: When we’re thinking about eating disorders in boys and in men, they are unquestionably on the rise. I think it would be useful for us to have a bit of a discussion about some of the reasons for this. I’d love to hear your thoughts on some of the reasons that this unfortunate shift is happening with men and boys.
William Hornby: Absolutely. One of the main reasons is similar to the spread of eating disorders in women’s spaces and girls’ spaces, which is that social media has a humongous influence. Dieting and the aesthetics of the way your body looks as a very cut and ‘muscular’ man, those aesthetics and trying to achieve them – it’s dieting. And weight loss, dieting, body modification, all of that is the main predictor of development of an eating disorder. When you view your body as something you can change through the way you’re eating and the way you’re exercising, and when that is tied to your gender identity, that becomes very central and very disordered very quickly.
The issue with the way that we advertise dieting and weight loss and muscle gain to men is that we have associated it with masculinity, and masculinity is a massive privilege in patriarchal societies. So people really have an iron grip on it when they have it, or when they’re doing things to try to grasp more privilege within the patriarchy. Men are constantly trying to be ‘real men’, and a lot of times we tell young boys one of the only ways to become a real man is to ‘eat clean’ and to ‘cut and bulk’ regularly. It really causes young men to develop orthorexia nervosa and really focus far too hard on how they can make their body look a certain way.
It’s a lot harder to approach a young man who is dealing with an eating disorder and get them to consider what they’re going through as disordered and as something that they need to work on because not only is it affording them this privilege, but also, it is something that they want to defend very strongly because it is fragile. Masculinity is so fragile, and the idea of it being taken away or diminished by really engaging in what would be a mental health recovery – it is worth it to them to be mentally unwell in order to have that kind of privilege in society of being a very slim and muscular man who performs health well.
Chris Sandel: It is interesting when I reflect on this. I’m 41; when I was in school, it wasn’t until the very end of my school that we had the internet, and it was the internet that was very different to the internet of today. When I reflect on it, it feels like a very different landscape. And it’s not that there wasn’t that masculinity at that point. There were the Arnold Schwarzenegger films, all of that kind of action genre at the movies. But it didn’t infiltrate in the same way that social media has.
It’s been really interesting looking at really probably the last I would say 10-15 years. One of the things that I noticed, or one the ways I first noticed it, was a lot with internet marketers. 15 years ago, internet marketers were just internet marketers. They were just talking how to write copy and how to sell stuff on the internet, etc. It was probably 5, 6, 7 years ago that I started to notice that not only are they selling this, but they’re also talking about getting rich and doing intermittent fasting and biohacking and life extension and all of this additional stuff that just wasn’t there, that then came to be wrapped up in, as you said, masculinity or wrapped up in what it means to be successful.
It was that in particular where I noticed there’d been this really big shift in what men value, but also how dieting is now being repackaged. Dieting is now being repackaged as biohacking and life extension. They’re framing it in this way that is much more palatable to men as opposed to how it was framed previously, where it was much of a ‘women’s’ thing.
William Hornby: Yeah, it absolutely has to do very heavily with marketing. There’s actually an author named Emily Contois who wrote a book called Diners, Dudes and Diets that talks about this phenomenon of marketing dieting and food to men and how that really changed over time, and how that has led to a lot more disordered eating and eating disorders within men. It’s a very interesting book that she’s written.
Chris Sandel: I will definitely put it in the show notes, and people can check it out. Is there anything else from that book that you want to mention, just go into a bit more detail?
William Hornby: She brings up a very interesting point about the Great Recession, which is that essentially, men really relied on their identity as breadwinners and as providers financially for their households, and that used to be one of the main appeals to masculinity, one of the main features of masculinity and what it meant to be a man. That definition really had to shift from a marketing standpoint for elder millennial men, younger millennial men, and now Gen Z men as well, because financially that became an unavailable option in many ways.
What really took over that pie graph of what it means to be a man, what really filled in the gaps when that financial aspect no longer could hold that space was physique and diet and how to eat. I’ve actually had so many women reach out to me telling me about how they’ve either had to break up with their boyfriends or they’ve had to draw really hard boundaries with their boyfriends and husbands and partners about talking about food, because a lot of them are in eating disorder recovery and their partners who are men have active eating disorders or eat in very disordered ways and really evangelise that disordered eating to everyone in their lives, including their partners who are in recovery from eating disorders. It’s actually very harmful.
Chris Sandel: I’ve had similar conversations with female clients about this exact thing, about husbands or about partners where their partner really does not get it, and they’re like, “What I’m doing is healthy. I like spending my time at the gym.” But it’s not even just that; it goes the step further of “This is a thing about personal responsibility, and if these people really cared about their health…” etc., etc., etc. It morphs into something a lot more painful than just ‘you do you’.
William Hornby: Yeah, absolutely. When we really consider caring about your health, a lot of times what people are talking about is caring about the performance of health and the privilege that performing health provides them within their lives.
You see this with men – and really anyone – who went to public gyms throughout the worst of the Covid pandemic. People who went to the gym without a mask on. You can’t really argue that they saw that as the ‘healthiest’ option. They saw preventing themselves from looking not muscular and preventing themselves from their proximity to fat bodies as a higher priority than not going to a public space where you have to breathe very heavily during a pandemic of a respiratory virus.
Chris Sandel: I agree. There’s a great documentary – and this came out quite a while ago, but it’s called Bigger, Stronger, Faster. Have you ever seen that?
William Hornby: I have not.
Chris Sandel: It’s all about bodybuilding and steroid use and a lot about wrestling as well. It just looks at how the pressures on men have changed over the years. There’s a great scene within the film looking at how G.I. Joe changed from the 1950s or ’60s when he first came out right up until present day, and how much bigger the figurines have got over that time. Just as an analogy, this is what we’re presenting to kids and people who are playing with these figurines as what we should be aiming for or what is more normalised. To see the shift that happened across 50 years is huge.
William Hornby: I’ve definitely seen probably clips of this documentary. I’ve definitely seen that G.I. Joe clip, either from this documentary or a mini doc that was inspired by it. But I’m looking at the Wikipedia page for it right now, and it definitely looks like a very interesting piece on what a lot of people would term ‘bigorexia’.
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Chris Sandel: Definitely. Do you want to talk about bigorexia? It’s not something I’ve covered in a huge amount of detail on the podcast, so you talk about it.
William Hornby: It’s not something that I have personal experience with. I will say that it is incredibly common in men, especially men who have decided that they’re very passionate about bodybuilding. It becomes influenced by body dysmorphia around believing that there is an inherent flaw in having a smaller body, a body that is not muscular in particular, and a body that is not cut to show off those muscles. Because that is perceived as an unforgivable flaw to many of these men, their body dysmorphia really preys on that. No matter how large they have gotten muscularly, they are not able to see it, and that further influences really harmful and really extreme cutting and bulking, and often overexercise as well.
Chris Sandel: I had Roberto Olivardia on the podcast and we did talk about this. The one thing with bigorexia is that – and he was saying this – it’s not the guys on Venice Beach who are lifting weights with their shirts off. He found that in a lot of ways, it is very similar to anorexia in that there is huge amounts of body shame. These are guys who would be on the cover of Men’s Health, but from their perspective, they don’t feel that is true. They don’t feel like they have a good body. He said it would be sweltering hot and they’re still wearing a full tracksuit because they feel so much shame about their body. There is so much of this body dysmorphia that is affecting the way that they perceive themselves.
I think there can be this misunderstanding that these guys are incredibly arrogant and that they’re very vain and all of this, and actually they are not seeing what their body truly looks like. It is so similar to anorexia, despite how different these things can look, at least on the surface.
William Hornby: Absolutely. Roberto’s work is very important. The Adonis Complex is a really important book, and it’s also important to remember that not only is it similar to anorexia in that way, but it is also just so deeply influenced by anti-fatness and featurism – these ideas that you are morally corrupt if you are not falling in line with these body ideals that society has set.
Chris Sandel: I know also there’s very incorrect statistics about how much men are affected by eating disorders. I always see numbers batted around of something like for every sufferer, 9 of those sufferers will be women and 1 of them will be men, and it’s disproportionately affecting women. But that is just not the case. Do you have certain statistics that you reference?
William Hornby: Yes. That statistic gets a little bit murky and misquoted when it’s thrown around. Truly what is being said is that for every 10 people in an eating disorder recovery programme, 9 of them are women and 1 is a man. That I think does reflect reality, whereas the data that we currently have, which is not great, determines that 25% to 40% of people with eating disorders are male-identifying, and that number, it’s really hard to pin down what the actual situation is. Not only because there’s lack of incentive to research men with eating disorders, but also because there are, quite frankly, unreliable participants in these future studies who would not self-identify as having an eating disorder even though they probably do.
It’s really a matter of we’re very behind on the science of studying this, and because in the Western world, most studies occur because there’s some kind of demand financially for them to occur, because men are not seeking out eating disorder treatment, it is very hard to financially incentivise study into men’s eating disorders.
Chris Sandel: I do wonder if that will change.
William Hornby: The figures are murky. [laughs]
Chris Sandel: I wonder if that’s going to change in the next 5 to 10 years, because everywhere that I speak, when I’m talking to different people who are connected to inpatient facilities, they are talking about the fact that “Hey, we’re getting more men now than we ever have before.” There are more inquiries, there are more men who are showing up. So yes, there is this lag in terms of how much men are affected versus how many are seeking treatment, but it feels like that tide is starting to turn. So I do wonder if in the next 5 to 10 years, we’re going to start to see a lot more funding going into this. Because as you say, it will then appeal, like there’s more demand and there’s more worth to doing this study.
William Hornby: Yeah, the tides are definitely changing. Part of my personal mission as an activist is to see that they do. Hopefully they will, because I want them to. [laughs] And quite frankly they need to.
00:47:39
Chris Sandel: Let’s talk about that part, your activist part of this. You rose to prominence because of social media, and really the reason we’re talking today is because of social media and the following you’ve amassed. Do you want to talk about how that all started?
William Hornby: It started because I decided that I could be for other people what I once needed. It really started with me pumpkin carving. My TikTok was a pumpkin carving account in October of 2020. I carved 18 pumpkins and went viral a few times doing so. I gained like 13.8 thousand followers and I was like, “Oh my goodness, this is so cool. I have so many people following me. What can I do with that?”
I really considered that I could start to talk about eating disorder recovery from a man’s perspective – a responsible man’s perspective when it comes to really taking in information and learning about how to responsibly advocate for eating disorder recovery. I’ve taken that very seriously, and it quickly blew up. It quickly became a huge thing. I really rose to the challenge of making sure that I was educated on what I was talking about.
Chris Sandel: With this – and I want you to know, the reason I found you was because of a client. I’m not on social media at all, and it’s been for me personally many years since I was really on social media. I’ve had some business accounts for Seven Health, and they’ve now been dormant for the last 18 months or so. So when my client mentioned who you were and I prepared for this interview and looked you up and all this, I went on TikTok and Instagram and watched a ton of your videos in one sitting, and then I left again, because I don’t spend my time on social media.
For many clients, they find social media to be useful and they can try and curate their feed so that it is as helpful as possible. And even when they do this, there’s points where they’re like, “I just realised I want to come off social media, and I don’t think this is actually helpful or a helpful use of my time.” I would love to get your thoughts on this. How do you think about social media and eating disorders, or social media and mental health?
William Hornby: I think what I do on social media is in many ways harm reduction rather than a purely positive thing. I hope that my content ends up in various people’s feeds due to similar themes in that they’re talking about eating disorders, they’re talking about weight loss / dieting. I’m hoping that my content is able to catch their eye and bring them out of that space where they’re consuming that very harmful content. I hope that they’re able to find my content, take solace in my content, and let that content propel them towards curating a more recovery-centric feed as well as seeking out help professionally within their actual lives.
Social media can be very harmful for mental health; it can also be a nice reprieve from life sometimes, depending on what kind of social media you’re absorbing. Pro-anorexia content is not the same as watching videos of little ducklings with flower crowns, you know? [laughs] So really figuring out how you can make your social media something that brings you joy and is something that positively impacts your mental health if that’s at all possible is an important thing to consider when you are engaging with social media of your own.
But when it comes to me creating content for social media, really it is a harm reductive thing. It’s trying to take people who are already sick and convince them that they have a problem worth reaching out to professionals about.
Chris Sandel: And my comments are to take nothing away from what you’re doing; I think you are doing an amazing job, and I’m glad that there are people like you doing this on social media. I have real ambivalence with social media, because I can reflect and think and know that more people know about intuitive eating, more people know about Health At Every Size, more people know about all these movements because of social media. They have really ballooned in their awareness in a very short amount of time because of social media.
So there is so much good to come from this – and there has been a huge uptick in mental health issues, suicide, you name it in terms of bad stuff for kids, for teenagers, for adults in terms of eating disorders and everything like it. So it’s that thing of like, is there a net positive from all of this, or is it really a net negative? I don’t have an answer to that question and I don’t necessarily expect you to have an answer to that question, but it is something that I think about.
William Hornby: I don’t think anyone has an answer to that question, really. I think that social media is in very much a grey area. A positive for social media for sure is the democratization of information, especially professionals, clinicians, educated advocates, people who are truly in the know and are spreading real information – that is very valuable and very important.
But there’s also this understanding in this situation that we find ourselves in that misinformation is also very prevalent on social media and that it can be really hard to determine whether a person is professional or someone who claims to be professional but is not. Misinformation is also being democratized. [laughs] So it’s definitely a double-edged sword. Social media lives in this grey area of ‘is it good, is it bad?’ There are great things about social media. The Arab Spring might’ve never happened if it weren’t for Facebook. There are people who are liberated. There are people who get life-saving mutual aid due to social media. there are people whose lives have been improved tenfold by social media, a hundredfold by social media. But there are also people whose lives have been incredibly negatively impacted by it.
Also, there are people who’ve experienced both. I would definitely consider myself to have experienced both incredibly positive things from social media and also incredibly negative things from social media. It is really like any other aspect of life in that there are positives and negatives, and it is up to you in many ways how you choose to engage with it, how you set boundaries with it.
More than that, it is up to the government to better regulate it. We are living in kind of the Wild West of social media in that there are no rules that are really having to be followed by these social media companies and that are being enforced by governments. Our governments are incredibly far behind when it comes to regulating what can and cannot happen on the internet, particularly large governments that have a lot of impact on the way these social media companies work within the English-speaking Western world such as the UK and the United States and even Australia.
When those countries make laws – when the EU makes a law regarding how social media is to function, it really has a worldwide impact. And that is worth considering if you are a citizen in one of those democracies, because you can really be out there pushing for the regulation of social media spaces. Contact your senators, contact your congresspeople, contact anyone in parliament that is in your district. Contact these representatives. Get people passionate about regulating the internet because the ways that people are able to prey on people’s ignorance, really, can be very harmful.
00:57:30
Chris Sandel: Definitely. How has it been for you recovering in public, for you personally? How has this affected your recovery, being this advocate while at the same time being in recovery yourself?
William Hornby: I would say that overall it’s had a very, very positive impact, but I think that that is because I don’t document my recovery on social media. I talk about lessons I’ve learned in recovery. I talk about tools to talk yourself through negative thoughts you might be having in recovery. I talk about how to navigate recovery without really delving into my personal experience or relating it back to me. When I am talking about things that have personally affected me, I generally don’t say “and this is something I struggle with too.”
That has allowed me to continue to talk and educate through the ups and downs of my recovery because it is so not directly about my own journey, which I think a lot of people who advocate for recovery do talk about their own journey. And I think that can be very helpful, and in other ways it can be harmful because of triggering details, because of the nature of eating disorders being competitive, and personal details may be invoking that sense of competition within people who are sick with eating disorders.
So it really is some touchy ground, but I think overall, even through the ups and downs of my own recovery since starting social media and doing this kind of advocacy work, I don’t think that my advocacy work has been negatively affected by points where I’m having a harder time in recovery. And I think that that’s really great, because also, when I’m having those harder times in recovery and I’m still making this content, I’m saying things often that I need to hear.
Chris Sandel: Was that a real intentional decision when you got started with this, or is it just lucky happenstance that this is how it’s panned out? Because as you were talking there, I’m like, that actually makes a lot of sense. You can talk very generally, you can talk about tools that could be helpful, and as you said, be a reminder for yourself, but you’re not getting into the nitty-gritty of what it’s like for your experience in that exact moment, where I would imagine it can then be much more challenging as opposed to the way that you were doing it.
William Hornby: I would say that its origins were more intentional than not, and at this point it is entirely intentional because I’ve got everything down to a formula. [laughs] But I’m not sure that it really truly started as the very articulate point I made to you just now about my intentions and how I deliver on them. But definitely at some point it did become a very intentional thing, and it is at this point very intentional.
Chris Sandel: what is it like being an advocate online? What are the good bits, which maybe you’ve already touched on so far, but what have been the challenging parts for you?
William Hornby: Oh, definitely the death threats. [laughs] The very personalised hatred that I’ve gotten has been unpleasant. But I will also say that I’ve had a lot of really, really lovely encounters, both online and in person, far more than negative. And I know for a fact that there are plenty of people who’ve reached out to me and told me – again, both in-person and online – that the work I’ve done on social media has encouraged them to save their own lives, that it has been the thing that pushed them to reach out for help. And many people have very openly said that if they hadn’t come across my content, they’re not sure whether they’d be here today. Knowing that I’m part of their journey, part of their decision to save their own life really keeps me motivated through the hard times of doing this.
Chris Sandel: That is huge. I can understand how that would be helpful for you.
01:02:21
I want to talk a little more broadly about men’s mental health, because I know this is an area that you talk about. Just as a starting place, what are your thoughts on where men’s mental health is right now?
William Hornby: I think there are pushes to destigmatise men asking for mental health support. I think it is definitely more normalised than it has ever been for men to seek mental health support. But I think that also, it’s really hard with the way we structure masculinity.
Within Western society and just in general throughout the world, we don’t offer men a lot of access to empathy when they’re growing up. We don’t teach empathy as an important value. We don’t hug our little boys as much. We don’t tell them we love them as much. We don’t let them express their emotions in the same way we let girls do because we’ve labelled emotional expression other than anger as ‘feminine’. That really harms men’s mental health later on in life, and as children, and it really stunts their emotional development and their EQ, if you will. It really has to do with the ways in which we teach masculinity to young men.
Masculinity is not inherently harmful, but toxic masculinity is. And it’s not just a buzzword; it is truly something that is negatively impacting men’s mental health at a very large scale. Liz Plank wrote a really incredible book called For the Love of Men: From Toxic to More Mindful Masculinity, and while she falls short of talking about men’s eating disorders and men’s eating problems within that book, she talks a lot about the ways in which men’s mental health is negative impacted by the patriarchy, by toxic masculinity.
The situation is that men’s mental health is not going to get better until we’ve really decided as a society that toxic masculinity is something we need to actively work to disengage with, to not teach our children to hold as a value.
Masculinity can be a very affirming thing for a lot of people, particularly trans men and anyone who has an inclination to identify as a man, including cis men. That includes transmasculine people. It is really, really important that we still have access to all forms of expression, but it is also important that we teach men that it is not weak to ask for help when they’re struggling, that we teach men to be open about their emotions and not have to hold them all in.
It’s also important that we teach men that violence is not an appropriate response, ever. That comes from a more macro sense in terms of going to war, and it comes from a micro sense of not fighting against other men that you know in your life, either verbally or physically. Not resorting to weapons when it comes to fighting with people. Not abusing your partner. Not killing your partner. Not killing other men.
And truly, also recognising the danger of owning a gun, not only as it relates to other people in the world, but as it relates to yourself as a mentally ill man. As a man who is suicidal in particular, having a gun is incredibly dangerous. It is the most popular method of dying by suicide, and it also one of the most successful methods of dying by suicide, which is why men disproportionately – not to use a crass term, but successfully execute plans to kill themselves.
01:07:24
Chris Sandel: Just touching on some of the things you’ve said there – I have a five-year-old son, and I’m constantly wanting to give him cuddles and show him affection and to let him know that all emotions are welcome and that we want to be able to express those things and talk about those things.
And even I – it was probably about this time last year, one of my friends set up a men’s circle that we did online. We did it for four weeks or six weeks, something like that, and it was with six or eight other men, just talking about stuff that we’re struggling with and what’s going on in our life and just sharing in a way that I’d never experienced before. I found it to be a really profound experience, and I’m eternally grateful for having that experience. I was able to talk about things that I hadn’t talked about before.
There was this real sense of like, why isn’t this more a part of our culture? This just feels so right, and it feels so helpful, and it does not make sense that this isn’t a more regular thing.
William Hornby: Absolutely. First of all, I applaud you for the ways in which you are raising your son. Also, I applaud you for finding community with other men in a way that is not influenced by some kind of substance. A lot of times the only time men feel like they can open up to each other is when they’re drunk and at a bar, and that can be incredibly harmful. Not because I’m saying ‘don’t do drugs’ or ‘don’t ever have alcohol’, but for a lot of men it can lead to alcoholism or addiction when they want to be able to open up consistently and they feel like it’s inappropriate to do so sober.
Chris Sandel: Yeah. I’ve listened to many podcasts now about AA, and while I don’t know how helpful or not helpful AA is in terms of getting someone to not be an alcoholic, what I do know is having a regular meeting where you are able to open up and share things that you’ve done and have people listen to you and support you – I am 100% an advocate of that and really wish there was more of these kinds of things going on. You don’t have to have had a struggle with alcohol for there to be a place for you to be able to do this. This should be there irrespective of that.
William Hornby: Absolutely. Communication and community are so important to not only heal from things, but more generally to just exist. We are communal creatures, and we need community. And a lot of men have no friends at the end of their life. They had very few friends and they’ve outlived them, or – I know so many men, older men in particular, who don’t have friends. It’s incredibly hard to live life in a way that doesn’t have community around you. A lot of men lack community.
So it’s really important that you develop that, which is why doing your little – not ‘little’, don’t mean to minimise it. Little in terms of the size of the group.
Chris Sandel: Intimate.
William Hornby: Having eight men come together and talk – yeah, it’s intimate. It’s very good.
Chris Sandel: I think we talk so much about all these things that are important for health in terms of are you eating the right foods, are you doing the right exercise, etc., but if you look at the data around the importance of relationships and social connection – and look, this should not be your only reason for why you want to have health relationships and social connection, but we talk so much about health; this should be the thing that everyone is banging their drum about. Like, hey, if you want to have good health, you need to have really good social connections. Pretty much bar none, this is one of the things that is going to make the most difference in your life. If you’re going to talk to me about ‘people need to lose weight’ or those things, I’m like, no, let’s talk about connection.
William Hornby: I think notably, healthism is such a prominent thing within our society, and really, ‘health’ is this construct that exists as a form of performance. It’s performing virtue, it is performing a certain kind of morality that you visibly ‘care’ about your health – when really, a lot of times what we consider to be healthy is not based in data, but it is based in conclusions that we have drawn socially. It is socially unacceptable, often, for men to be in community with other men and be vulnerable. But there’s plenty of data to support lack of illness connected to that.
So really, when we are talking about ‘health’ promoting behaviours, one of the most health promoting behaviours is developing community and actively being a part of the community.
Chris Sandel: I totally agree. I also agree about the whole healthism piece with this. If you’re going to talk about what really matters –
William Hornby: Of course, of course. Was not trying to imply that you did not. [laughs]
01:14:06
Chris Sandel: Yeah. I also know that you have a presentation on the power of becoming the advocate you needed. I know we’ve chatted on lots of different topics up until this point, but what are some of the ideas from that talk that we haven’t touched on at this point?
William Hornby: I think the main idea that I hope people come away from that talk with is that if you feel as though you would like to make a positive impact on the world and you have been through something, you have survived something, you have gotten through something that you haven’t seen represented anywhere, there is a need for someone like you to talk about that openly and encourage other people to pursue that same journey.
There are limitations to my intersecting identities when it comes to talking about eating disorder recovery. Notably, I am a white cisgender gay man talking about eating disorder recovery through the lens of someone who has access to health care. Not everyone has access to health care. A lot of people who are men with eating disorders are not white, or they’re not gay, or they’re not cis.
So it’s really important that we have Black straight men talking about eating disorder recovery and what it looks like as a Black straight man to go through eating disorder recovery. We need people of all intersecting identities talking about their experiences with these issues because it allows for more people to feel welcome within the space of eating disorder recovery, to feel like it could be them too that gets help for this thing they really need help with. Be the advocate you once needed. If you feel so inclined.
Chris Sandel: Sure. What do you think would’ve been different for your journey if, when you were told you had this eating disorder, you went online and you were able to find lots of men’s advocates who looked like you and sounded like you and felt like, “Okay, I get this”? What do you think would’ve been different for your experience if there had been all of these advocates that there currently isn’t?
William Hornby: Well, I definitely wouldn’t be doing what I’m doing right now, that’s for sure. [laughs] I’m not sure I would’ve felt called to advocacy for this if I felt like the eating disorder world was already flooded with people like me talking about it, and if I felt represented. I think I would’ve felt like there need to be other people who are not represented speaking up, and that I didn’t need to add to the noise already there.
I know that a lot of thin white women who deal with eating disorders who are very socially aware look at the people who are talking about them and advocating for eating disorder recovery and they look at that space and say, “My identities are the thing that is most represented in this space; I don’t want to further take up space in this realm of information”, and leave more space for people who are not skinny white girls dealing with this. So if I had looked at a space filled with gay white men talking about eating disorder recovery, then I wouldn’t have felt called to do this because I would’ve thought, “Well, there’s no need for me to add my voice in as well.”
Which is why I’m saying that if you have intersecting identities that you don’t see represented in any space that you want to advocate within, you should step up and do that if you feel so inclined.
01:18:37
Chris Sandel: Where do you see things going for you from here? What are your plans in terms of this becoming more of a career? What is next?
William Hornby: Oh, I have lots of plans. I’m not going to talk about all of them on this podcast. One of them is I do plan on writing a book about men’s eating disorders sooner rather than later. Don’t have a timeline for you on that.
Also, advocating for more funding into eating disorder research for men. Advocating for less anti-fatness in our laws here in the United States in particular, and less anti-fatness in our world in general. And working very closely with eating disorder for-profits and non-profits to have them become more inclusive organisations and to have them advocate as well for more research into the ways that eating disorders show up in different communities.
Chris Sandel: Nice. Have you noticed, given the prominence of your voice and you getting involved already with these different organisations, has there been more openness to say “Okay, we are going to have a men’s group with this” or “We are going to actually set up some funding for this thing”? Have you started to see any shift at this point from your collaboration with people?
William Hornby: I am definitely seeing the beginnings of a shift, if that answers your question.
Chris Sandel: It does.
William Hornby: I don’t believe that there have been any massive things to write home about regarding what has happened in terms of organisations and the visibility of men with eating disorders during this time. But I will also say that the fact that I am in the room, talking about men’s eating disorders, and people turn to me to learn more about them, I think shows that we’re headed in the right direction. The fact that I’m in the room talking about this is a huge step forward.
Chris Sandel: Would you become a therapist? Is that on the cards at all?
William Hornby: [laughs] My therapist thinks I should become a therapist, which is a pretty glowing endorsement from the person who knows the worst things about me. But I personally do not currently feel inclined to become a dietitian or a therapist simply because I love the extent to which I can influence dietitians and therapists right now as not one of them, and not being held to really any standards that are enforced by a larger organisation regarding what I can and cannot say.
I think that my current position allows me to remain as true to what seems to be right as I can be, whereas sometimes when you have an official title, such as therapist, clinician, registered dietitian, there are certain things you cannot say or that you’ll get in trouble for saying or claiming. So I work with a lot of dietitians, I work with a lot of therapists, I talk to them very often, but I am not currently on track or really headed in a direction where I feel like I need to become that.
Chris Sandel: It sounds like you have a lot of power to talk about things and to really have that independence to do what you want with this. And as you’ve said a number of times, using that in a very positive way where you are constantly like “I want to learn more about this thing, I want to make sure that I am truly the advocate that is needed, and that I’m doing this in the best possible way.” So I totally get your response there of why being a therapist is not on your radar right now.
William Hornby: Yeah. Thank you for understanding.
Chris Sandel: William, this has been great, going through everything with you. Is there anything else we haven’t talked about that you want to mention before we wrap this up?
William Hornby: We’ve talked about it a little bit, but I really just want to say that if you are going through any kind of struggles with food or with your body, they’re worth reaching out to a professional about. There is a life outside of struggling with those things, and there is more to life than struggling with those things. If you are struggling in any way, it is worth getting help.
Chris Sandel: I wholeheartedly second that opinion. So where should people be going if they’re wanting to find out more about you? Where is the best place? I’ll put all of this in the show notes.
William Hornby: Of course. You can find me on TikTok and on Instagram @williamhornby. You can find my website at www.williamhornby.com. And you can also find me on YouTube and Spotify with my music. I’m also on Apple Music. I write music about mental health and eating disorder recovery. And I also am available for contact by email. If you have any specific questions that you would like me to answer, I will get back to you at williamdavidhornby@gmail.com.
Chris Sandel: Perfect. I will put all of that in the show notes, and thank you so much for your time. I really enjoyed chatting with you.
William Hornby: Thank you so much for having me on, Chris. It’s been a pleasure.
Chris Sandel: So that’s my conversation with William Hornby. If you are on social media, then I highly suggest following him and watching his videos. He is incredible at being an advocate, and I want as many people as possible to find him.
01:25:20
I want to make a recommendation for you. It is a documentary called The Volcano. It was actually on my list of things I watched from last year, so if you’ve listened to the episode I did on my favourite things, it was in that list. I think I watched it right at the end of the year, just before doing that episode. But it’s a documentary that seems to have stuck with me since then and keeps coming to mind.
The documentary is about the White Island volcanic eruption in New Zealand that happened in 2019. This was an active volcano that you could catch a boat out to sea where you could go and look into the crater. Unfortunately, on one of these trips, while people were on the island, the volcano erupted. The documentary focusses on what happened and the rescue operation that ensued.
This is a very intense documentary telling a truly tragic story, as many people lost their lives. But the part that has stuck with me is the interview with four of the survivors: a couple from the U.S. who were there on their honeymoon, one of the people who was a guide there, and an Australian tourist who was there with his family. What struck me is how each of these people have been affected differently and the story they tell connected to what happened, and how these stories have coloured and are still colouring their recovery. To hear how each of these people talk about what they’ve taken from this experience for me is really a fascinating look into human psychology.
As I said earlier, this is an intense documentary and is by no means light viewing. It also doesn’t have the uplifting feeling at the end. But if you are open to watching something like this, then I highly recommend checking it out because I watched it over two months ago and I regularly think about it. It’s called The Volcano, and it is on Netflix.
As I mentioned at the top, I’m currently taking on new clients and have just three spots left. You are able to find out more by heading over to www.seven-health.com/help. I will be back next week with another episode, and I’ll catch you then.
Thanks so much for joining this week. Have some feedback you’d like to share? Leave a note in the comment section below!
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